Hey There! Miss Me? Hahaha
Man, you guys are going out of your way to educate me. So much good stuff here that I can see I'm going to be typing for a while. With that in mind, I'm going to back up a bit to acknowledge some things better than I did earlier. I'm going to try and hit the items that I found particularly helpful. That's not to say that I'm minimizing any of it, it's just that some of the information that's been shared covers things I already knew. So, I'll cover what I'm learning here and from other sources and I'll try and be clearer about what my intentions are, for now at least. So, to do this with some continuity I'm cherry picking bits of quotes from some what's been posted and then pasting them in order. Hopefully I don't make a mess of it. I'm not finding quoting in this forum so easy since this thread now spans a few pages and using the (") tab doesn't seem to allow me to then go back for more quotes. So, I'm sort of having to copy and paste. Here goes.
Regards,
Pete
RFGuy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:54 am
Rarely have I ever had boards that came out perfectly flat (after planing and jointing) with no bowing or twisting that could impact edge to edge glue up. I find that some means of vertical alignment, e.g. dowels, dominos, etc. helps greatly on alignment for my glue-ups and tends to result in a more perfectly flat panel afterwards. I don't think going the route of horizontal boring with a Mark V is going to be easy to get bulletproof alignment for dowel joinery on a panel glue-up like this.
JMO,
I'm finally getting somewhere with my milling operations. I'm not saying that I have it licked, but I am saying that I'm pretty pleased with how well it's going. My jointer and planner efforts are yielding smooth flat and square edged boards. AT this point I've been dealing with pine, poplar and soft maple (which ain't that soft,
) I haven't tried to do anything fancy like rabbets on the jointer, but I have seen a couple videos by youtube influencers that show how to run two boards through together to get perfect edge joints and I'm going to give that a try next when I prepare some wood for edge gluing. Also, at this point again following the advise from folks like Steve Ramsey and others I plan to keep my individual boards fairly narrow like no more than 3-1/4" in width. As for length, I'm not going to begin by getting carried away. Somehow I think I gave the impression that I was planning on making a large table top, but for now I'll probably be limiting my first attempts to around 2' by 2', maybe 3'. I don't even have any real experience with a hand planning yet,but, it's all on table, so to speak.
Because, of all the good feedback I've received about dowels, loos tenons, biscuits, etc., I've been busy researching. More on that in a bit.
edflorence wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 12:52 pm
The inner faces of the cauls are covered with
strapping tape or wax paper to prevent them from sticking to the glue, and
some people recommend that the cauls be gently curved on their inner faces such that the center of the caul is about 1/4 inch or maybe 3/8 inch thicker than at the ends. That little bit of curve ensures good pressure along the full length of the caul.
Ed,
Thanks for bringing me this information about cauls. Here are two (2) links for anyone that is interested in seeing a couple of good little videos by
Stumpy Nubs and
WoodWorkWeb on the subject of cauls.
edflorence wrote: ↑Thu Oct 12, 2023 1:15 pm
Well, I don't claim to have done a lot of doweling on the Mark V, but over the years I have done some. About a year ago I had to edge join some picnic table legs that were angled on the inner faces, and the glue-up required temporary clamping "ears" for the clamps to press against. Since the glue-up was going to be a little tricky, I decided to use dowels to make sure the pieces were aligned and did not slide around when I clamped them. With my 500 in horizontal drilling mode I clamped a board to the main table at the correct angle and drilled for the dowels.
The legs are redwood, so the drilling was easy and the clamped board provided enough resistance against the quill to keep the table from flexing. In the case of a harder to drill wood I have had to do things like clamp the main table to the auxiliary table and/or use the fence backed up with boards clamped at right angles to the fence to counter the deflecting forces. Even so, it is still necessary to drill with minimal pressure on the quill, withdraw the bit frequently and take small "bites" to avoid moving the table.
Ed,
Thanks for sharing this and the pictures of the cauls and the table leg joinery.
RFGuy wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 8:56 am
When I mention vertical alignment I am referring to two boards side-by-side, edge glued where you want the top to be perfectly flush.
So, the desire is to have vertical alignment between the two boards such that the top surface is the reference to achieve a flush surface. Note that biscuit joinery gives you this with vertical alignment, but they don't give you any horizontal alignment, so the board ends could be askew relative to each other. For panels you don't have to have horizontal alignment from the joinery, but must make sure you achieve this on glue-up or you will need to trim both ends of the panel instead of simply sanding them. Dowel joinery isn't very forgiving because they provide both vertical and horizontal alignment - in other words their placement needs to be precise. Consequently any error in placement will either result in a panel that won't assemble or result in a top surface that isn't flush. Loose tenon joinery, such as the Domino, can give both vertical and horizontal alignment.
On a large panel like a table top, you can mortise the first mortise on one end of the board with the tight setting. Then the rest of the mortises down that board can be done on one of the 2 optional loose settings that they offer. This results in a mortise that has more side to side play but keeps the same mortise height in the vertical dimension. As a result, the one Domino on the panel ends (one in each board to board connection) sets the horizontal reference so that all of the boards will be flush on the end, while the interior dominoes will maintain the vertical alignment only. This makes panel assembly easy and quick which is helpful considering the glue sets quickly during assembly of a panel.
Without this feature, making all of the domino mortises tight fitting would have the same problem as dowel joinery and require absolute precision of every mortise or the panel would not assemble, i.e. holes in the wrong places.
P.S. I know a picture would really help with this, so below is a pic illustrating the 3 different width settings of the Festool Domino. The one on the left is the standard (tight setting) and what I would use on one end of a panel. Then subsequent mortises down the length of the board would be done on the 2nd setting (loose setting). In such a way, the 1st (tight) Domino sets the vertical and horizontal alignment between the two boards and each subsequent loose Domino down the length of the board holds that vertical alignment to give a flush top surface to the panel. This gives some small horizontal play of each loose Domino so that a panel can be easily assembled at glue up. Unfortunately you can't do something similar with dowel joinery. Biscuits give a little bit of horizontal slop and make assembly of panels easier, though not all biscuit machines are equal in quality...
DominoSettings.jpg
JMO,
Thank you for breaking this down for me. It was really enlightening and it truly helped me grasp everything you were conveying. It all makes perfect sense, I get it. Probably not going to buy a domino, but now I understand what makes them so sexy.
RFGuy wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 8:56 am
IF you are set on doing dowel joinery on a large panel, I would recommend a dowel joinery jig such as Jessem's or any other good name brand. Doing approximately 80 dowel holes and mating them all on a large panel can be done with a Mark V, but it isn't going to be easy or fast. I think you will get better alignment and better results doing that with a dowel joinery jig IMHO. For smaller projects, fewer horizontal borings like what Ed showed, the Mark V is fantastic for this. Just my opinion and there may be others on the forum who disagree with this. T
aking the Shopsmith out of the discussion, I think the real question becomes do you need/want joinery in your large panel that you started discussing on this thread? IF so, you may be better off with other joinery methods. The Festool Domino is fantastic, but expensive. Biscuit joiners are more accessible and give only vertical alignment, but that is all you really need for a panel provided you take care on assembly to keep the ends flush and square.
For small panels, such as a cutting board, you may want to forgo joinery altogether and/or give it a go with horizontal boring and dowel joinery on the Mark V. JMO.
JMO,
I took the time to do some research on Horizontal boring using the Shopsmith (520 in my case), and doweling jigs. There is even a diagram for making a doweling jig specifically for horizontal boring with the shopsmith in Power Tool Woodworking for Everyone (PTWFE). It's Figure 11-9 on page 131 in the 4th Edition. Normally, I can pretty easily grasp the jigs I've seen in PTWFE, but this one is not coming to me easily. His description on the build properties is minimal to say the least and his drawing is not super clear to me. I think I kind of get it, but I'd love someone elses ideas about it. Based on some others (that are hand held) that I found online, both DIY and manufactured, I think I can make it and even improve on it a bit, thanks to some of the videos I've watched. Anyway, I'd still be interested in what you or anyone following can make of it. Following your explanation of the importance of the first Domino for vertical and horizontal positioning, I think the same goes for the first Dowel and while I agree with how much more important horizontal accuracy is after that for Dowels, I think that is where the PTWFE jig comes in, for horizontal boring, even vertical boring for that matter. For anyone who's interested here's a link to a guy named
Earl Davidson and this is his third DIY dowel jig. This one is for joining long boards.
I'm curious about how you came up with your 80 dowels number? How far do you feel they should be spaced apart? Figuring spacing of about 1' apart it wood take 6 dowels to join two sides of 5' long boards. Figuring 8, 3" wide boards to make a 2' wide table (which I admit is narrow), I arrived at 42 dowels (84 holes). All this is conjecture on my part because I have absolutely no idea of what it takes.
So, if you were thinking more along the lines of 5' x 4' and my conjectures concerning spacing are close, then we're definitely getting to 80 dowels and beyond.
nuhobby wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:11 pm
This entire thread is highly informative.
I will just mention that my first Shopsmith WW project in 2007 used horizontal boring and dowels to help glue up a wide desktop I made. It is still perfect and gap-free 15 years later. I do remember running a handplane over the finished joints, before sanding and finishing.
nuhobby,
If you are still following, I'd love to hear some more detail on your desk build as it pertains to the dowel joinery, type of wood used to make the top, overall dimensions, dowel spacing, struggles, etc. Obviously it was a decade and a half ago, but whatever details you do remember would be interesting to me. I'm sure we'd all like to see some pictures if you'd care to share.
edflorence wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 8:26 pm
Just a second thought or two to add to this thread: I have never drilled a series of dowel holes in a long workpiece, but I have more than once drilled mortices at different locations along the edge of a long workpiece, using sometimes the horizontal boring mode and sometimes the drill press mode. I will say that sometimes it is easier to keep the table from flexing by using vertical supports under it when in the drill press mode. Might be something to consider if you are worried about table flex or fence movement when drilling in horizontal mode.
Ed,
I can certainly see what you are saying here. I would think it would be much easier to support the table when drilling seriously hard wood in the vertical drill press mode. I've used it in Drill press mode and horizontal mode, but not for what I'm intending. I'm really looking forward to finding out what I am able to do in both vertical and horizontal.
edflorence wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2023 8:26 pm
As far as the large panels without joinery issue, it seems to me that the keys to success are jointing technique and clamping technique. I have done a number of large panels, up to about 24 inches wide by nearly 60 inches tall. This sometimes requires 2 or 3 glue ups, depending on the number of pieces in the panel. And the panels I have made have been forgiving in that the final thickness was not critical, and so that allowed for a bit of clean-up planing, sanding and scraping. I think if I were trying to make a panel whose thickness had to be a certain dimension, I would mill the stuff a bit thick, joint and glue as wide a panel as would fit my planer, plane to the required thickness and repeat as needed until the panel width was achieved.
I've actually seen this done by some on youtube. They get everything pretty close thickness-wise and then glue up sections of panels that will fit through their planner and run them all together before joining the sections together. As I recall, it was very successful.
RFGuy wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:38 am
Ed,
Thanks.
All good tips and I hope all of this has been useful for Pete. Yeah, we talked about horizontal vs. vertical on a previous thread and I agree with you. I may get back to doing more with horizontal boring one day on my Mark V. Last time I used it, I did use the tip of clamping to the main table behind the fence to minimize slippage. I have never considered myself a "gorilla engineer", so I am always setting bolts to torque specs (no more) and that sort of thing. So,
I am just not comfortable with increasing the fence adjustment more than I already have to prevent slippage in horizontal boring mode. Though I know this was suggested on previous threads. I may be too conservative on this, but so be it. For sure, when vertical mode is applicable and adequate support can be provided underneath the table, I agree with you and think this is the preferred solution.
Sometimes I think we (Shopsmith owners) get caught up in the fact that it "can" do horizontal boring that we "must" do horizontal boring. IF one solution is more accessible/easier than the other, then it should be pursued.
JMO,
Well by now you know how pleased I am with the response to my questions. I really appreciate all of the time and energy everyone has contributed. I've learned a ton. I hope this has or will be beneficial to others.
As for the fence I get where you are coming from. I've tweaked mine to near perfection.
DLB wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 10:22 am
Do you lubricate your 520 fence cam locks? I use powdered graphite for this, I'm sure other dry lubes would work. I only ask because I know sometimes it feels tight when it isn't. I probably set mine kind of tight, but there isn't much lever arm there.
- David
I've also used graphite powder for my levers. It made a huge difference. I also learned a nice trick from a
Doug Reid video on the 520 Fence and how to move it accurately by pushing it up against the infeed side of the table when sliding it back and forth.
jsburger wrote: ↑Mon Oct 16, 2023 1:11 pm
FWIW, I lubricate my 520 fence lever regularly. I use dry spray lube. I also almost never adjust the tension but I can sure tell when it is time to lubricate. The lever gets very tight to move. That could give one the sense that the adjustment is over tightened but it is not. The dry lube makes all the difference in the world.
Hi John,
Thanks for this post. What type of dry lube spray do you use? I bought some that WD40 makes, but have been reluctant to use it.
Whew,
This was a lot of work, but then it was also worth it. Thanks again everyone. I apologise for any typos and stuff that I missed and might not make sense. I've tried to edit this thing, but it's a lot. Hahaha
Regards,
Pete
P.S. Haven't done a lick on the Shopsmith in the past week. Just been busy with life stuff. I'm hoping to change that soon. My grandson is getting married this weekend, and my wife and I are helping out, so I doubt it will be this week.