shaper setup problem?

[z-man]

Hey there. Anyone have any ideas what me and my son are doing wrong when it comes to successfully using our SS shaper to use the rail and stile cutters? Our problem is that when we shape the end grain the result is always out of square. We've worked and worked again to try to get the miter guage square to the shaper fence and all of that square to the table, but we keep ending up with scrap wood.

In all cases, the cutter is cutting deeper at the beginning edge of the work piece than at the end. It's like the work piece is gradually moving away from the fence.

Any ideas?

Many thanks.

PS I've had my SS for 25 years but this is my first post. Glad I found this forum.

[a1gutterman]

Hey there. Anyone have any ideas what me and my son are doing wrong when it comes to successfully using our SS shaper to use the rail and stile cutters? Our problem is that when we shape the end grain the result is always out of square. We've worked and worked again to try to get the miter guage square to the shaper fence and all of that square to the table, but we keep ending up with scrap wood.

In all cases, the cutter is cutting deeper at the beginning edge of the work piece than at the end. It's like the work piece is gradually moving away from the fence.

Any ideas?

Many thanks.

PS I've had my SS for 25 years but this is my first post. Glad I found this forum.

It sounds like your wood is moving as you are cutting. Is that possible? Are you using the SS Miter Guage Safety Grip? Either that or you are knot as square to the cutter as you think. I do knot have the shaper pkg, so maybe I am missing something with this picture?

BTW, Thanks for joining our group and welcome to it.

[dusty]

It sounds like your work piece is moving during the cut.

Can you post a photo or two to give the membership a better idea of your setup.

Clamps and feather boards - are any being used in your setup?

[judaspre1982]

======================

[reible]

Hi,

Just a couple of things that come to mind. Are you trying to do this in one pass? If so you might want to change it to 2 or 3 passes.

Are you able to use rub collars/bearings on the shaft? If not see if you can and then when adjusting the fence just isolating the collar, it will add some support for the cut between the opening in the fence.

Are making sure the fence is parallel to the miter gauge slot? To use the miter gauge this is a must.

Is the miter gauge at 90 degrees to the fence, again this is a must.

You may find it easier to make a sled that slides along the fence and has a clamp and backer board. This takes care of the 90 deg issue and the fence having to be aligned to the miter slot. The backer board will also help eliminate the chip out at the end of the cut. As was mentioned you really need to hold the stock tight and this is where a proper clamp can be a big help.

You might want to check this out too:
http://www.shopsmith.com/academy/shaping/index.htm

To see an example of a sled check out this one:
http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/accessorysafe.html#Professional_Coping_Sled_anchor

These are most often associated with router tables but should be able to adopted to the shopsmith shaper operations. Note the clamping system.

Hope this helps,

Ed

[z-man]

[quote="reible"]Hi,

Just a couple of things that come to mind. Are you trying to do this in one pass? If so you might want to change it to 2 or 3 passes.

I'm taking small nibbles so that is not the problem:)

Are you able to use rub collars/bearings on the shaft? If not see if you can and then when adjusting the fence just isolating the collar, it will add some support for the cut between the opening in the fence.

I have a collar installed but I think it is smaller than the diameter of the cutter.


You might want to check this out too:
http://www.shopsmith.com/academy/shaping/index.htm

I checked this out and something they say does not seem to make sense in reality where they say "When shaping the end grain of stock 2" to 6" wide, use your miter gauge with safety grip to control the stock, and keep the feather board guard in place to protect your hands and hold the stock down" What is wrong here is that with the feather board in place you can't use the pistol grip. The feather board sticks down too far to allow the pistol grip to pass. Obviously I am missing something??

To see an example of a sled check out this one:
http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/accessorysafe.html#Professional_Coping_Sled_anchor

Thanks to everyone for the advice. I will try again tomorrow.

z-man;)

[reible]

Hi again,

The feather board should look something like this:
http://www.shopsmith.com/academy/shapin ... 9-25LG.jpg

So I guess I should ask which machine you are working on. The photo is for the 510 and the updated fence... are you by chance running on a 500?


BTW I should also say welcome to the group and enjoy your stay!

Ed

[JPG]

[quote="z-man"][quote="reible"]Hi,

Just a couple of things that come to mind. Are you trying to do this in one pass? If so you might want to change it to 2 or 3 passes.

I'm taking small nibbles so that is not the problem:)

Are you able to use rub collars/bearings on the shaft? If not see if you can and then when adjusting the fence just isolating the collar, it will add some support for the cut between the opening in the fence.

I have a collar installed but I think it is smaller than the diameter of the cutter.



You might want to check this out too:
http://www.shopsmith.com/academy/shaping/index.htm

I checked this out and something they say does not seem to make sense in reality where they say "When shaping the end grain of stock 2" to 6" wide, use your miter gauge with safety grip to control the stock, and keep the feather board guard in place to protect your hands and hold the stock down" What is wrong here is that with the feather board in place you can't use the pistol grip. The feather board sticks down too far to allow the pistol grip to pass. Obviously I am missing something??

To see an example of a sled check out this one:
http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/accessorysafe.html#Professional_Coping_Sled_anchor

Thanks to everyone for the advice. I will try again tomorrow.

z-man]
What am I missing? How does the feather board interfere with the 'pistol grip'?

P.S. there should be no difference between a 500 or 505..520. The size difference is mostly on the side away from the headstock.<<< I remeasured - ALL the difference is on the side away from the headstock!

[reible]

Before this gets to confusing... I'll make it even more confusing.

500 vs 5XX

The older design shaping package had a different design then the one for the newer larger table models. It clamps to the outside of the table, the newer version uses holes in the main table to mount. The old version has only one fence adjuster knob, the new version has two.

Now more to the point I had to buy router/shaper guard retrofit kit to get the featherboard-guard assembly. This part attaches to the quill and this fixes the position of the featherboard to the quill and cutter location but not the fence. This is what I'm guess could be part of the issue(s).

Shopsmith also sold a rip fence featherboard that can be adapted to use for other applications such as mounting to the wood pieces on the shaper fence. In this case the featherboard is fix in position to the fence. This is another way of doing things and it to could be part of the issue(s).

The setup for the 500 and the newer fence are also different. So we might need to review them as well, again depending on which is being used.

Of course it might be as simple as the wood moving despite the miter grip, or the fence moving or the table moving....

Another reason I'm interested in which of the two systems he has is because I think the issue could come down to the adjustments of the in and out feed sides of the fence. If you cut away the whole profile of the workpiece then the out feed fence needs to make up the difference. This is the same principle as the jointer.

Anyway I hope this can be quickly solved and the parts can get made.

Ed

[JPG]

Before this gets to confusing... I'll make it even more confusing.

500 vs 5XX

The older design shaping package had a different design then the one for the newer larger table models. It clamps to the outside of the table, the newer version uses holes in the main table to mount. The old version has only one fence adjuster knob, the new version has two.

Now more to the point I had to buy router/shaper guard retrofit kit to get the featherboard-guard assembly. This part attaches to the quill and this fixes the position of the featherboard to the quill and cutter location but not the fence. This is what I'm guess could be part of the issue(s).

Shopsmith also sold a rip fence featherboard that can be adapted to use for other applications such as mounting to the wood pieces on the shaper fence. In this case the featherboard is fix in position to the fence. This is another way of doing things and it to could be part of the issue(s).

The setup for the 500 and the newer fence are also different. So we might need to review them as well, again depending on which is being used.

Of course it might be as simple as the wood moving despite the miter grip, or the fence moving or the table moving....

Another reason I'm interested in which of the two systems he has is because I think the issue could come down to the adjustments of the in and out feed sides of the fence. If you cut away the whole profile of the workpiece then the out feed fence needs to make up the difference. This is the same principle as the jointer.

Anyway I hope this can be quickly solved and the parts can get made.

Ed

As Ed has brought up, the shaper fences are different and mount differently.

However these differences are not such as to cause the interference alluded to. For all intents and purposes they result in the shaper fence being located in the same position relative to the quill.

The 500 shaper fence is longer so as to enable clamping it around the front and back edge of the main table. The 5xx shaper fence mounts to the main table by two bolts running through the shaper fence and the main table. The 5xx shaper fence has slotted holes which allow some in/out positioning adjustment. The 500 shaper fence can be moved in/out along the front and back edge of the main table.

The 'throat' area(where the shaper cutters are positioned) is identical. The fence halves are identical. Although the 5xx has knobs to adjust both fence halves(in/out) the 500 is also adjustable(but the outfeed fence requires manual positioning).

Normally the table is positioned under the quill and the shaper fence positioned to the quill also. Both versions may be positioned the same position from the quill(cutter).