TomH
Ok, well, Fedex delived the package on Saturday so I got the headstock mounted today, waxed the quill and tried it out after the alleged repair.
NO DIFFERENCE FROM WHEN IT WAS SENT IN! STILL CHATTERS LIKE A JACKHAMMER WHEN EXTENDING THE QUILL! :mad:
So this leads me to several thoughts:
1. That's the way it's supposed to work which would be sad since my original headstock was smooth as silk.
2. SS got pissed I called to find out when they were going to fix it and they just shipped it back without doing anything. Again, sad customer service, seems I should be able to ask about my repair.
No documentation on what if anything was done, pretty sure they just held on to it for a couple of weeks then shipped it back.
So using the 1/4"bit setting (1700 rpm), it's like holding on to a palm sander or something it vibrates so hard. Can't wait to try it at a faster speed, that's going to be very special. And guess what, doesn't drill a decent hole with that vibration either, unless you want oval holes.
I give up. Guess I'll have to buy a drill press. Seems odd to spend that kind of money and get less of a machine than I had before. Purchased the original SS in 1997, never had a lick of trouble with it.
algale
TomH wroteOk, well, Fedex delived the package on Saturday so I got the headstock mounted today, waxed the quill and tried it out after the alleged repair.
NO DIFFERENCE FROM WHEN IT WAS SENT IN! STILL CHATTERS LIKE A JACKHAMMER WHEN EXTENDING THE QUILL! :mad:
So this leads me to several thoughts:
1. That's the way it's supposed to work which would be sad since my original headstock was smooth as silk.
2. SS got pissed I called to find out when they were going to fix it and they just shipped it back without doing anything. Again, sad customer service, seems I should be able to ask about my repair.
No documentation on what if anything was done, pretty sure they just held on to it for a couple of weeks then shipped it back.
So using the 1/4"bit setting (1700 rpm), it's like holding on to a palm sander or something it vibrates so hard. Can't wait to try it at a faster speed, that's going to be very special. And guess what, doesn't drill a decent hole with that vibration either, unless you want oval holes.
I give up. Guess I'll have to buy a drill press. Seems odd to spend that kind of money and get less of a machine than I had before. Purchased the original SS in 1997, never had a lick of trouble with it.
Well, there are other possibilities, including damage during shipment. Obviously you will call customer service Monday. We will all be watching how this gets resolved.
TomH
algale wroteTomH wroteOk, well, Fedex delived the package on Saturday so I got the headstock mounted today, waxed the quill and tried it out after the alleged repair.
NO DIFFERENCE FROM WHEN IT WAS SENT IN! STILL CHATTERS LIKE A JACKHAMMER WHEN EXTENDING THE QUILL! :mad:
So this leads me to several thoughts:
1. That's the way it's supposed to work which would be sad since my original headstock was smooth as silk.
2. SS got pissed I called to find out when they were going to fix it and they just shipped it back without doing anything. Again, sad customer service, seems I should be able to ask about my repair.
No documentation on what if anything was done, pretty sure they just held on to it for a couple of weeks then shipped it back.
So using the 1/4"bit setting (1700 rpm), it's like holding on to a palm sander or something it vibrates so hard. Can't wait to try it at a faster speed, that's going to be very special. And guess what, doesn't drill a decent hole with that vibration either, unless you want oval holes.
I give up. Guess I'll have to buy a drill press. Seems odd to spend that kind of money and get less of a machine than I had before. Purchased the original SS in 1997, never had a lick of trouble with it.
Well, there are other possibilities, including damage during shipment. Obviously you will call customer service Monday. We will all be watching how this gets resolved.
Possible but not probable. Box was pristine (just like the first time) and had no damage on the outside of it. Their packing technique is really quite well thought out and it's very snug.
That having been said, it could be something in shipping but that it would happen twice in the same way would be unusual. Basically, after being told they would look at it in another 4 weeks, then it suddenly shipped back to me the next day, I think they just reboxed it and shipped it back.
Bruce
I would definitely ask to speak to a technician in addition to customer support.
reible
TomH wroteOk, well, Fedex delived the package on Saturday so I got the headstock mounted today, waxed the quill and tried it out after the alleged repair.
NO DIFFERENCE FROM WHEN IT WAS SENT IN! STILL CHATTERS LIKE A JACKHAMMER WHEN EXTENDING THE QUILL! :mad:
So this leads me to several thoughts:
1. That's the way it's supposed to work which would be sad since my original headstock was smooth as silk.
2. SS got pissed I called to find out when they were going to fix it and they just shipped it back without doing anything. Again, sad customer service, seems I should be able to ask about my repair.
No documentation on what if anything was done, pretty sure they just held on to it for a couple of weeks then shipped it back.
So using the 1/4"bit setting (1700 rpm), it's like holding on to a palm sander or something it vibrates so hard. Can't wait to try it at a faster speed, that's going to be very special. And guess what, doesn't drill a decent hole with that vibration either, unless you want oval holes.
I give up. Guess I'll have to buy a drill press. Seems odd to spend that kind of money and get less of a machine than I had before. Purchased the original SS in 1997, never had a lick of trouble with it.
I'm really sorry to hear this. You need to call again and ask to talk to who ever is in charge. This is not right. They need to make good on this and you need to push them to do so.
I'm assuming that you told them this happens when the quill is extended, right? I could see them having looked at it and not finding anything because they never extended the quill. I am correct that it works fine other wise?
Ed
algale
TomH wrote
Possible but not probable. Box was pristine (just like the first time) and had no damage on the outside of it. Their packing technique is really quite well thought out and it's very snug.
That having been said, it could be something in shipping but that it would happen twice in the same way would be unusual. Basically, after being told they would look at it in another 4 weeks, then it suddenly shipped back to me the next day, I think they just reboxed it and shipped it back.
I still suggest you call Monday and I agree with Ed's comment: ask to please speak to the technician who actually checked it out.
This does remind me a bit of a problem that member charlese was having -- but in his case it only manifested itself when connected to the band saw. Lots of banging as I recall.
By the way, does this happen when you drill in horizontal boring mode? How about when extending the quill with the disc sander?
TomH
algale wroteTomH wrote
Possible but not probable. Box was pristine (just like the first time) and had no damage on the outside of it. Their packing technique is really quite well thought out and it's very snug.
That having been said, it could be something in shipping but that it would happen twice in the same way would be unusual. Basically, after being told they would look at it in another 4 weeks, then it suddenly shipped back to me the next day, I think they just reboxed it and shipped it back.
I still suggest you call Monday and I agree with Ed's comment: ask to please speak to the technician who actually checked it out.
This does remind me a bit of a problem that member charlese was having -- but in his case it only manifested itself when connected to the band saw. Lots of banging as I recall.
By the way, does this happen when you drill in horizontal boring mode? How about when extending the quill with the disc sander?
Any time the shaft is moving and the quill is extended, vertical or horizontal.
algale
Obviously that is a totally unacceptable condition. Again, I will be watching this thread to see what they do to make this right.
Even though there's been some changes in the last year in customer service, I believe the company has integrity; I know their main engineer is a person of integrity. A few years ago I had a really perplexing problem with my 520 tables (fence would not stay aligned moving from main table to aux or extension). It resulted in a really long thread on the Forum and many discussions with customer service. They probably thought I was crazy. Eventually I paid to ship all the tables back to Shopsmith with a long cover letter explaining what I was seeing and everything I had done to try to fix the issue. Even though I bought my system used, the chief engineer spent a lot of time figuring out what the problem. He eventually called me back and said he was seeing the same thing as I and Shopsmith ultimately fixed the problem free of charge when he determined it was a manufacturing issue. Again, this was a USED system.
That is why I believe if they can verify your problem they will make it right.
dusty
Where can it be? I would think the quill. Nothing else is changed as a result of the quill being extended.
With the quill extended and the PowerPro turned on, does holding the quill or putting lateral pressure on the quill change anything?
What if you take the quill out completely?
wa2crk
You said that the drilling speed was about 1700 RPM.
Does the condition very when the speed is raised or lowered?
Does the chattering frequency increase or decrease as the quill is extended?
Is the chattering/vibration obvious when the headstock is horizontal?
Does the chattering get worse as the quill is extended?
Can you measure the diameter of the two quill housings at several points along the length of the housing to detect any variance between the old and the new?
Did you closely inspect the casting to see if there any cracks?
Can you change the chattering if you try to push laterally on the quill housing ( left/right or in/out ) when it is chattering?
It is now time to go through the entire problem in a methodical and predictable manner and record the results.
Come back here with a summary of the results and maybe we can figure something out.
Bill V
P.S. I just re-read your post from 1815 hrs and the reference to out of round holes. The only way to drill out of round holes is to have the drill bit running off center. My feeling at this time is that something is being held in place when the quill housing is fully retracted but picks up some play when the the quill is extended. Improperly installed bearings in the quill housing and/or play between the casting and the quill housing. I used to work in a QA lab and I love trying to get to the root cause of a problem.
rjent
wa2crk wroteYou said that the drilling speed was about 1700 RPM.
Does the condition very when the speed is raised or lowered?
Does the chattering frequency increase or decrease as the quill is extended?
Is the chattering/vibration obvious when the headstock is horizontal?
Does the chattering get worse as the quill is extended?
Can you measure the diameter of the two quill housings at several points along the length of the housing to detect any variance between the old and the new?
Did you closely inspect the casting to see if there any cracks?
Can you change the chattering if you try to push laterally on the quill housing ( left/right or in/out ) when it is chattering?
It is now time to go through the entire problem in a methodical and predictable manner and record the results.
Come back here with a summary of the results and maybe we can figure something out.
Bill V
P.S. I just re-read your post from 1815 hrs and the reference to out of round holes. The only way to drill out of round holes is to have the drill bit running off center. My feeling at this time is that something is being held in place when the quill housing is fully retracted but picks up some play when the the quill is extended. Improperly installed bearings in the quill housing and/or play between the casting and the quill housing. I used to work in a QA lab and I love trying to get to the root cause of a problem.
This is true. Very well said.
This is a machine, it is fixable. I have learned the hard way that you usually need to do things yourself when the going gets rough. You (we) need to just get some parameters, apply some engineering and technical processes and get this fixed. I personally think you have bearing problems, but it certainly could be the quill itself as has been pointed out. These machines are not that complicated, so let's just get it fixed! :D
I am disappointed in Shopsmith, and a little disturbed by this and hopefully there is a good explanation .... :/
Just trying to help .... :)
ERLover
ERLover wroteJust remembered how dry UT is.
John where are you from originally?? I think you are a 20 year man so must have hit some NCO clubs????!!!
ERLover
First I really feel your frustration and no one to vent on/get answers at SS till Monday. I do not accept this type of lack of answers/service, but as an AH I can be, I found sedate questions and asking for the supervisor starts off as not getting written off from the start, then you can always ramp it up.
Any chance you can stop payment or put it in dispute at this point? I think dispute can go back 2-3 months on original payment.
I would be lived at this point, now as an retired engineer, but not allot of experience in harmonics, left that to the ones who where, you are talking around 1700rpm if I remember, a high area for harmonics, same as around 3550rpm, B4 variable speed DC motors so I dont if the same applies. Just a thought, and these machines were in a fossil fuel PP that were measured in tons, turbine, generator, boiler water feed pumps, but i think it all ablies.
jsburger
ERLover wroteERLover wroteJust remembered how dry UT is.
John where are you from originally?? I think you are a 20 year man so must have hit some NCO clubs????!!!
Since you asked. :)
I have hit many NCO Clubs all over the world.
Born in Providence RI. My father was in the 10th Mountain Division in WW II and ended up in the Poe Valley in northern Italy when the war was over.
The 10th was de-actived sometime after the WW II but it is back now at Fort Drum NY. It is a very elite organization.
I was TDY at an Italian AFB in in 1987 in the Poe valley where my father was.
Yes I have 24 years in the USAF. The rest of my time was an AF civilian. My wife has 35 years as a civilian in direct maintenance with the Army and the AF maintaining helicopter radios, tank laser designaters and aircraft generators.
Between us we have 75 years of service to the DOD.
ERLover
Nice to you and yours, and thanks for your service. Allot of nice pension in there too I suspect, but you 2 deserve it. Since pay is not always equal to the same in a non military position, but some other trade offs, fed tax med ect. But your life is not your own so to speak. My oldest was academy sought after, I told him fine but what are your promo options, and if you dont like your next 6 years your stuck, he was above that type of thinking/promo system and did not.
So without hijacking here and I can do that as well as JPG, you have gotten soused at some time with the boys in an NCO club? My joke was UT, with there booze laws, I spend mothers day in SLC airport for 5 hours on a delay/hold over, when I was in my 20s/1974, on my way to AK for some spring bear hunting, do you think I could get a drink????? Actually a beautiful Tutonic woman said are you nuts, it is Sunday and Mothers day and you are in Salt Lake City and you want a drink, good luck!!!
JPG
I am going to hazard a wild a$$ guess.
Mill marks on the splined shaft that rubs on the nylon coupler and possibly a bent shaft that makes that more apparent.
Like I said - guess. ;)
Or the gear teeth on the bottom of the quill body, but shaft not rotating should not affect that.
Oblong hole is likely a bad bearing. Is one perhaps 'missing'?
TomH
You guys are the best! This is why I like user forums, lots of support!
Ok, I have a ton of things to try today and will get back with results when I have all the data requested.
BTW, having worked in a Tech Support department many moons ago, I definitely go with the kid gloves and buttery radio voice when calling in to SS or any other place for help! ;)
I did have an evil thought last night...gives me an excuse to get another SS and set it up as a full time drill press. :D
Oh, payment stopping is out of the question, paid for it in July when purchased at a road show at Lowe's.
Be back with more data later...
TomH
Right lads, I have performed the requested tests (twice just to make sure) and have the following data:
(BTW wa2crk de wb0gkm 73's)
Performed each test at 900 rpm, 1100 rpm and 1700 rpm both with motor horizontal and vertical.
1. Frequency of the vibration does change, getting worse with speed. No difference between Horz and Vert.
2. Frequency of vibration is the same throughout the range of the quill. Also, my quill only self-retracts so far, leaves about the last 2 to 3 inches out. Yes, I waxed the quill twice. ;)
3. Wasn't quite sure what I was supposed to measure, however this quill and the on from my old headstock are the same diameter as near as I can determine.
4. No cracks, dents or scuffs on the housing.
5. Took a block of wood (safety first!) and pushed laterally on the non-spinning part of the quill whilst extending and retracting. This does seem to mitigate the vibration to a great extent.
6. Same response for all whether horz or vert
Did the same tests with the old headstock on bench, it was smooth as silk as all speeds. (Surprising how much more noisy it is though!)
So one idea that I had that may be useless...can I remove the quill from the old headstock and swap it for the new one?
Have not had time to call SS this morning yet, my pesky job keeps getting in the way! :D Soon as I can get them on the phone, I'll let you know.
Thank you all!
algale
I believe you can swap quills BUT make sure you call Shopsmith and make sure they don't have an issue with this voiding the warranty!
The failure of the quill to retract suggests to me that the set screw that rides in the quill (half-dog IIRC) is over-tightened and is causing binding on the quill. That set screw is hidden under a putty/lead plug on top of casing).
JPG
If the 'old' quill operates correctly in the 'new' headstock, I would suggest(to SSCS) that you return the quill for 'examination by them.
IIRC you already tried the old quill in the new headstock.
Question is, is the new quill feed stuff relevant/culpable?
Have we not already eliminated the half dog set screw?
If not, a definite candidate. I thought the quill had been already removed etc.. However rpms would not change vibration with that.
It has to be something sensitive to rotation.
Two different problems? Vibration, lack of retraction.
