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PowerPro Woes...

dusty

JPG wroteIf the 'old' quill operates correctly in the 'new' headstock, I would suggest(to SSCS) that you return the quill for 'examination by them.

IIRC you already tried the old quill in the new headstock.

Question is, is the new quill feed stuff relevant/culpable?

Have we not already eliminated the half dog set screw?

If not, a definite candidate. I thought the quill had been already removed etc.. However rpms would not change vibration with that.

It has to be something sensitive to rotation.

Two different problems? Vibration, lack of retraction.

I had drawn that conclusion myself but since he is asking and since the quill does not retract as it should, I now have some doubts. I am surprised that removing the quill was not one of the first things Shopsmith would suggest.

BTW, Yes, the quill should go all the way out and retract all the way if the half dog set screw (on top of the headstock) is properly installed.

wa2crk

!. Try the old quill in the new headstock and I think that you said the vibration went away but the quill still would not retract. 2. Change the pinion shaft from the new headstock with the pinion shaft from the old headstock.

3.Is the vibration gone?

4. Does the quill retract as in the old headstock?

5. If the answer is "yes" to #3 and#4 Then the problem is in the quill and pinion shaft. ( may actually be two problems )

6. Install the quill and pinion shafts from the new unit into the old headstock. Does the problem move to the old headstock? If "yes" then the quill and the pinion shaft should be returned to SS for an engineering evaluation. If "no" then there is another condition.

Come back here. We will try again. I have another suggestion but it is way out in left field.

Bill V

rjent

JPG wroteIf the 'old' quill operates correctly in the 'new' headstock, I would suggest(to SSCS) that you return the quill for 'examination by them.

IIRC you already tried the old quill in the new headstock.

Question is, is the new quill feed stuff relevant/culpable?

Have we not already eliminated the half dog set screw?

If not, a definite candidate. I thought the quill had been already removed etc.. However rpms would not change vibration with that.

It has to be something sensitive to rotation.

Two different problems? Vibration, lack of retraction.

JPG, wa2crk, could the splined shaft (spindle assembly) that drives the quill be bent and therefore cause the vibration as it extends? It would also explain the difficulty retracting .... No? (Spindle assy #62)

dusty

wa2crk wrote!. Try the old quill in the new headstock and I think that you said the vibration went away but the quill still would not retract. 2. Change the pinion shaft from the new headstock with the pinion shaft from the old headstock.

3.Is the vibration gone?

4. Does the quill retract as in the old headstock?

5. If the answer is "yes" to #3 and#4 Then the problem is in the quill and pinion shaft. ( may actually be two problems )

6. Install the quill and pinion shafts from the new unit into the old headstock. Does the problem move to the old headstock? If "yes" then the quill and the pinion shaft should be returned to SS for an engineering evaluation. If "no" then there is another condition.

Come back here. We will try again. I have another suggestion but it is way out in left field.

Bill V

If I understand correctly - this is a new PowerPro and is under warranty. There is a limit to what the customer can do without adversely effecting that warranty.

Furthermore, if it is a new unit - Shopsmith should be head over heels in the resolution.

I love to deal with situations like this. It was my job for many years but we must not allow ourselves to get carried away with suggestions that might become inappropriate given the situation.

algale

dusty wrote

If I understand correctly - this is a new PowerPro and is under warranty. There is a limit to what the customer can do withoiut adversely effecting that warranty.

Furthermore, if it is a new unit - Shopsmith should be head over heels in the resolution.

I love to deal with situations like this. It was my job for many years but we must not allow ourselves to get carried away with suggestions that might become inappropriate given the situation.

Totally agree! A few posts ago I suggested checking with Shopsmith before tinkering for this very reason.

wa2crk

Answer to your post of 1701 hrs today Yes and Yes depending on the degree of bend. I would at this time remove both the old and the new quills and go through a part by part comparison being careful not to mingle the old parts and the new. A bent quill shaft can be easily detected by rolling it across a flat surface. If it bounces a bit it ain't straight.

The fact that the frequency of vibration increases at higher speed is consistent with something being loose. The faster you rotate it the faster it will slap around.

Now is the time to get really detailed and log your findings. Sure would want to know what is causing this. Don't mind my agitation but I am one of those guys that just don't let inanimate objects get the better of me

Bill V

There was one occasion that was reported on this site in which the idler shaft was pushed into the interior of the headstock during shipment. It is possible that the quill shaft was bent during shipping. The quill shaft is tough but not indestructible.

wa2crk

Just wondering. Is there any resolution to this yet?

Bill V

TomH

Sorry this took so long to post, life got in the way of play again!

So I called SS and asked to speak to CS about what was done to my headstock. They referred me to Sue Powell who apparently does the repair work on the headstocks. She was very nice and remembered working on my headstock.

She and another tech also felt the same vibration / chattering that I did and she said they adjusted things to spec and sent it back. I politely expressed that it still vibrated and the quill didn't retract either. She offered to let me send it back again, which for now I've declined.

The more we talked about what was going on she did agree that it was not vibration free like my old head stock and the vibrations I'm feeling are "normal" due to "build up of tolerance issues" in the parts. Which I think translates to crappy manufacturing. She assured me that other than being annoying, there was nothing being damaged inside and while they would be happy to work on it again, she could not guarantee it wouldn't still have issues. I asked if it was anything I could do myself and she gave me a definite NO. Also, shared that when I pushed on it laterally the vibration went away and she didn't think that was significant or useful...again Tolerances.

I did drill some new holes and they are nice a round this time so they must have done something but I still think I could go to Harbor Freight Tools and get a drill press that ran smoother for under $100.

On the quill issue (which begs the question, how did it leave in this condition if you worked on it...and no I didn't as that question) she has advised me to loosen the set screw on the top and to make sure there were no burrs or junk in the groove that would be holding it up.

Sooooooo, not sure what if anything to do next. It drills a decent hole, I can probably get the quill to work so I guess I just chalk it up to "tolerances" and keep moving?

What do you guys think? I just don't want to keep shipping 80lbs of headstock back and forth.

And thanks again for all the help!

algale

TomH wroteSorry this took so long to post, life got in the way of play again!

So I called SS and asked to speak to CS about what was done to my headstock. They referred me to Sue Powell who apparently does the repair work on the headstocks. She was very nice and remembered working on my headstock.

She and another tech also felt the same vibration / chattering that I did and she said they adjusted things to spec and sent it back. I politely expressed that it still vibrated and the quill didn't retract either. She offered to let me send it back again, which for now I've declined.

The more we talked about what was going on she did agree that it was not vibration free like my old head stock and the vibrations I'm feeling are "normal" due to "build up of tolerance issues" in the parts. Which I think translates to crappy manufacturing. She assured me that other than being annoying, there was nothing being damaged inside and while they would be happy to work on it again, she could not guarantee it wouldn't still have issues. I asked if it was anything I could do myself and she gave me a definite NO. Also, shared that when I pushed on it laterally the vibration went away and she didn't think that was significant or useful...again Tolerances.

I did drill some new holes and they are nice a round this time so they must have done something but I still think I could go to Harbor Freight Tools and get a drill press that ran smoother for under $100.

On the quill issue (which begs the question, how did it leave in this condition if you worked on it...and no I didn't as that question) she has advised me to loosen the set screw on the top and to make sure there were no burrs or junk in the groove that would be holding it up.

Sooooooo, not sure what if anything to do next. It drills a decent hole, I can probably get the quill to work so I guess I just chalk it up to "tolerances" and keep moving?

What do you guys think? I just don't want to keep shipping 80lbs of headstock back and forth.

And thanks again for all the help!

Assuming your aren't the proverbial Princess and the vibration

Isn't the proverbial pea, I am deeply disappointed. I think if vibration were typical, we'd have heard from other members with power pro headstocks. I'd be inclined to send it back and request a loaner while they work in it. Plainly it was not properly adjusted given the quill retraction issue. Should never have left the factory in that condition. This is very upsetting to me as I hope to be a future power pro customer and this makes me wonder whether it is worth it.

nuhobby

I've had a PowerPro (DIY install) since Sept of 2010. I recall a note in the DIY instructions that slight distortion of the headstock casting could occur, and I do believe I can sense that, as though the massive motor weight imposes some slight pressure or torque on the casting. If the Quill is nice, clean and waxed, no problems. But if it's getting dirty it can sometimes hang up a bit on retraction, probably more often that I had seen with the original induction motor setup. Beyond the clean & wax habit, I make a habit of tightening down both Quill lock-wingnuts every now and then, so the rack & pinion system on the quill doesn't get too wayward in the lateral direction.

Chris

dusty

I have worked on the phone with Sue. She is experienced and I would normally tend to accept her analysis. However, I am skeptical.

Since I do not have a PowerPro, I cannot comment on whether the vibration that you sense is normal or not. Comments from others, here on the forum who own PowerPros, makes me feel that it is not. Most will say that the PowerPro is much, much quieter and runs as smooth as silk.

You need to chat with them.

Tolerance buildup is not a good thing. Tolerance accumulation is normal and if the parts in inventory are all within tolerance when they are assembled those tolerances tend to cancel one another out and have "no ill effect" on the resulting assembly. I tend to believe that Sue is using the terminology without really believing (or understanding) what her words imply.

Let me ask one question. If you remove the quill and run the PowerPro without it do you still experience the vibration.

wa2crk

A build up of tolerances? Really? Tolerance build up is something that is known to mechanical engineers and is generally accounted for in the dimensioning of the mating parts. Even differences in coefficient of expansion/contraction can be accounted for.

Did something break in the shipping process due to rough handling? There has been at least one case of damage reported here of rough handling causing a problem.

My power Pro is very quiet and smooth and I never had a problem with off center or egg shaped drilled holes.

Bill V

rjent

I also am deeply concerned about this. ShopSmith has always had the "fix it at all costs" policy until now. Very disturbing.

Now with that said, I will say my Mark 7 that I purchased about 18 months ago, basically had the sticking quill at well. I waxed, cleaned till I was blue in the face, but nothing would keep it from sticking a few inches from full retraction. Until a month ago or so. I now works fine, some burr or something was restricting the retraction and is now gone. As far as vibration, It is smooth as silk, at all revolutions.

I don't know what to say other than work it hard and see what happens.

What does it feel like at 10000 RPM?

wa2crk

From the things that he was describing I would not go near 10,000 RPM. :eek:

Bill V

dusty

I'm going to say it again (with a bit more enthusiasm).

Remove the quill and run it at max speed and report what it does. If it runs smooth - report that immediately to Shopsmith (Sue).

rjent

dusty wroteI'm going to say it again (with a bit more enthusiasm).

Remove the quill and run it at max speed and report what it does. If it runs smooth - report that immediately to Shopsmith (Sue).

Is he allowed to remove the quill? He was told NOT to do anything to it, is my understanding. Did I read that wrong LOL....

rjent

wa2crk wroteFrom the things that he was describing I would not go near 10,000 RPM. :eek:

Bill V

My feelings about that, and I agree, I would be unconfortible in doing it, is that it may cause a failure. If it does, problem solved, if it doesn't, it at the least may provide more info.

I think I would wear Kevlar though :D

ERLover

What I think about it all, Bah Humbug!!! A crap sandwich.

dusty

rjent wrote
dusty wroteI'm going to say it again (with a bit more enthusiasm).

Remove the quill and run it at max speed and report what it does. If it runs smooth - report that immediately to Shopsmith (Sue).
Is he allowed to remove the quill? He was told NOT to do anything to it, is my understanding. Did I read that wrong LOL....

If that is the case and this is part of a problem isolation, I would do as told.

If Shopsmith is NOT in the process of isolated the reported problem, I would not hesitate for a moment to run it up to 10,000. It is designed to do that. If it does not, NOW is the time to find out.

All important however is the verification of this statement.

He was told NOT to do anything to it, is my understanding.

rjent

dusty wrote
rjent wrote
dusty wroteI'm going to say it again (with a bit more enthusiasm).

Remove the quill and run it at max speed and report what it does. If it runs smooth - report that immediately to Shopsmith (Sue).
Is he allowed to remove the quill? He was told NOT to do anything to it, is my understanding. Did I read that wrong LOL....
If that is the case and this is part of a problem isolation, I would do as told.

If Shopsmith is NOT in the process of isolated the reported problem, I would not hesitate for a moment to run it up to 10,000. It is designed to do that. If it does not, NOW is the time to find out.

All important however is the verification of this statement.

He was told NOT to do anything to it, is my understanding.

I agree with you 100 percent. I went back and reread the post and yup, no touchy. I say run it up to 10000 let it blow if it will, if not, I would seriously think about just returning it. I wouldn't put up with it.

TomH wroteSorry this took so long to post, life got in the way of play again!

So I called SS and asked to speak to CS about what was done to my headstock. They referred me to Sue Powell who apparently does the repair work on the headstocks. She was very nice and remembered working on my headstock.

She and another tech also felt the same vibration / chattering that I did and she said they adjusted things to spec and sent it back. I politely expressed that it still vibrated and the quill didn't retract either. She offered to let me send it back again, which for now I've declined.

The more we talked about what was going on she did agree that it was not vibration free like my old head stock and the vibrations I'm feeling are "normal" due to "build up of tolerance issues" in the parts. Which I think translates to crappy manufacturing. She assured me that other than being annoying, there was nothing being damaged inside and while they would be happy to work on it again, she could not guarantee it wouldn't still have issues. I asked if it was anything I could do myself and she gave me a definite NO. Also, shared that when I pushed on it laterally the vibration went away and she didn't think that was significant or useful...again Tolerances.

I did drill some new holes and they are nice a round this time so they must have done something but I still think I could go to Harbor Freight Tools and get a drill press that ran smoother for under $100.

On the quill issue (which begs the question, how did it leave in this condition if you worked on it...and no I didn't as that question) she has advised me to loosen the set screw on the top and to make sure there were no burrs or junk in the groove that would be holding it up.

Sooooooo, not sure what if anything to do next. It drills a decent hole, I can probably get the quill to work so I guess I just chalk it up to "tolerances" and keep moving?

What do you guys think? I just don't want to keep shipping 80lbs of headstock back and forth.

And thanks again for all the help!

Unless I am interpreting that wrong .... :confused:

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