RFGuy
Thanks Ed. You are saying that the Shopsmith version is marked as such? Is this printed on the block of aluminum or do you mean on the plastic case? I don't have this so now I am wondering if I have the correct version myself. I thought that I had the Shopsmith version of the MiterSet Standard and Segments.
edflorence
RFGuy;
I don't have the aluminum version. Mine is the older plywood one. The heavy cardboard box it came in was marked "Shopsmith Version". It doesn't have the plastic case and I don't see any other reference to it being the Shopsmith Version, so it seems if you are not sure you will have to measure the slot.
Ed
Cliffy
I'm trying to figure out the picture posting but if one looks real close at the 6 side pin you will see that the end (corner) of the SS miter gauge hits the 6 pin BEFORE the tangent point ( the point where a longer miter gauge would touch) there by stopping at some angle less than what is needed for 6 sides.
The MiterSet is designed to utilize the pin sides that are tangent to the angle setting for the correct setting.
RFGuy
Just wondering if anyone in the forum has been successful using the MiterSet Segments block? I haven't used mine yet and have a long list of projects before I can get to testing it. Because of Googling MiterSet to get the manual for it yesterday, the YouTube algorithm decided to give me this video below this morning. In it, David Stanton discusses both MiterSets and shows off some 7 segment rings he built with it. NOWHERE in the video does he talk about fine tuning with sanding to get the segments to fit and they look absolutely perfect. If you have ever watched any of David Stanton's videos you should know that he doesn't typically skip or hide steps so I don't think he is leaving this part out, i.e. he is usually very thorough. My point is WHY can he get perfect miters on a 7 segment assembly with only tablesaw cuts? Is his tablesaw that much more precise than a Shopsmith? Is it that the Incra V27 miter bar has less play than the Shopsmith miter bar? Is he helped by the long extension fence on the Incra V27? Is there too much play in a Shopsmith version of the MiterSet Segments? I know one can always fine tune a miter with sanding to get a perfect fit, but the whole point of a tool like the MiterSet is so that you don't have to. I know Cliffy has had some issues with getting accurate miters with his MiterSet and I am not saying this as a criticism. I appreciate Cliffy sharing his findings here. I am just wondering why Mark V + Shopsmith miter gauge + MiterSet Segments doesn't equal near perfect results. What is different with using it on Shopsmith equipment??? Has anyone used the MiterSet Segments with success and without having to sand the miters to adjust angles?
Cliffy
I too wanted the same thing- perfect miter cuts with ease but its not happening (It could be me I don't know yet)
In my instance I have found that ANY slop in the saw slot will vary the angle of cut slightly (both in the table slot and the MiterSet slot). It has to.
Multiply the slop angularity (it varies with every cut left or right in the slot) by the number of cuts and the polygon will not meet perfectly at the end.
In the case of the SS table saw even the table wobble on 2 support legs will affect the angle to some extent. My next trial will be with the extra table and extension tubes hooked up for more stability there.
More over by using soft wood and thick pieces some slight misalignment can be crushed out of existence with the application of a tight band to clamp them together.
I am currently making oak polygons with 1/2" oak with rounded outside edges (1/4 circle so the outside edge will not accept a traditional screw clamp so the oak being a hard wood does not "crush" any misalignment even if a clamp could be used.
I'm willing to bet the guy in the video has no more than .001 slop in his slot in the table, He has a perfectly stable table top in relation to the saw blade and his MiterSet didn't have .008-.009 inches of slop like mine had in the beginning. He has a much more accurate system for sawing than the SS has.
SS never envisioned such close tolerances IMO.
Just as a little background I have been working with wood for over 50 years doing everything from construction to fine furniture and clock cases (my current endeavor) in all kinds of wood pine, oak, cherry, walnut, birch, poplar you name it but with separate stand alone tools before the SS
I'm finding the SS does what I need quite well EXCEPT for this one item- accurate MITER CUTS. It fit my new shop space perfect (that is why I bought it) and does a good job on all other shop work that I need it to do. Not being a production shop a little hand work on the disc sander may be something I'll have to live with if a cure is not found.
dusty
If you have the lock screw applied, does this create a high spot on the bar that simply allows the miter bar to rock.
Cliffy
Yes this is why I dropped in a .003 feeler gauge up at the far end of the MS slot so I have only about .001 slop or "rocker' in the bar/slot combination as I set the SS miter gauge to the pins in the MS I also used an aluminum straight edge to bridge the 8 side pin and the "0" pin for setting
After setting the screw in the SS bar so that I had maybe .001 slop there I still had about .004 slop at the far end of the MS slot hence the .003 feeler gauge shim at that end.
chapmanruss
In reading Cliffy's postings there does seem to be a problem between the Miterset and his miter having too much extra space or "slop" in the channel. By everything he has said it is the Shopsmith version he has. The non-Shopsmith or regular version would be wider than what he is experiencing. The Miterset has a .753” wide miter slot for most brands and the Shopsmith version has a .723” slot. Cliffy reported having up to a .009 gap.
Cliffy,
For comparison how well does your miter bar fit in the slot of your Mark V's table? Do you have more than one miter to try in the Miterset? I am wondering if the bar of your miter may be adding to the problem you are having. As I said yesterday I tried 3 miters and a spare bar all of which have the "T" track washer but found slight variances measured at the same spot on my Miterset Standard (again I do not have the Miterset Segments) and the same location on the miter bars. The "slop" was from a tighter .002 to .003 going in easily but a .004 would not go in. I can get a .003 and at points a .004 feeler gauge in between the "T" track on my Mark 7 table and one of my miter bars. I only tried it with one miter. I realize we are only talking about thousands of an inch here but if the angle is off when set in the Miterset and additionally off in the miter slot of the table it does add up to greater inaccuracies.
Cliffy
My SS bar mics at .723-.724 depending on where I measure it. It was .009 loose before I drove the set screw in farther to get a .001
slop at that point. Again I had .004 slop at the far end taken up worth the .003 feeler gauge for setting the miter bar.
dusty
Cliffy wrote
My SS bar mics at .723-.724 depending on where I measure it. It was .009 loose before I drove the set screw in farther to get a .001
slop at that point. Again I had .004 slop at the far end taken up worth the .003 feeler gauge for setting the miter bar.
My miter bars mic from .7265 to .728
RFGuy
This may not be helpful, but I couldn't find much online regarding reviews of the MiterSet Segments. In general, the few reviews that I could find were generally favorable of this product. The forum linked below complained of similar issues with angle errors accumulating on using the MiterSet Segments for an 8 segment ring. Once they aligned their tablesaw supposedly to 0.0005" they were able to get perfect results using the MiterSet Segments. Given this to do the same on a Mark V would require a good table alignment and would require the connector rods to stabilize the main table to the aux table, I think. Unfortunately, after the success with the ring, the person in the forum below then tried to use the same setup to make a segmented lid and it did NOT turn out so they switched to a solid lid, but never reported back on whether they found the source of their error for the segmented lid. My assumption is that they could get away with the small angle error on segmented rings, but when trying to make a solid top (segmented pie pieces) that the full length reference surface on each segment further revealed the angle error causing fit issues.
https://forums.woodnet.net/showthread.php?tid=7330840
JPG
All this consternation over miter bar slop. Anyone bothered to calculate what that slop does to the resultant angle of the face of the miter gauge?
Cliffy
With the same slop the more segments per wheel the more gap
RFGuy
Not so much consternation as just hoping a forum member with more experience in segmented turning would comment. Unfortunately, activity has been greatly reduced on this forum lately...probably one of those threads where in 5 years someone will come back with feedback. :rolleyes:
dusty
RFGuy wrote
Not so much consternation as just hoping a forum member with more experience in segmented turning would comment. Unfortunately, activity has been greatly reduced on this forum lately...probably one of those threads where in 5 years someone will come back with feedback. :rolleyes:
I agree with all you have said but the primary discussion here was not about segmented turning. It was about the MiterSet being inaccurate due to a loose fit with the miter bar. Certainy, if the miter bar is sloppy the cuts are going to be "inconsistent".
I believe the OP declared .009" of miter bar movement in the slot on the MiterSet. That is a great deal more movement than I would expect.
dusty
RFGuy wrote
This may not be helpful, but I couldn't find much online regarding reviews of the MiterSet Segments. In general, the few reviews that I could find were generally favorable of this product. The forum linked below complained of similar issues with angle errors accumulating on using the MiterSet Segments for an 8 segment ring. Once they aligned their tablesaw supposedly to 0.0005" they were able to get perfect results using the MiterSet Segments. Given this to do the same on a Mark V would require a good table alignment and would require the connector rods to stabilize the main table to the aux table, I think. Unfortunately, after the success with the ring, the person in the forum below then tried to use the same setup to make a segmented lid and it did NOT turn out so they switched to a solid lid, but never reported back on whether they found the source of their error for the segmented lid. My assumption is that they could get away with the small angle error on segmented rings, but when trying to make a solid top (segmented pie pieces) that the full length reference surface on each segment further revealed the angle error causing fit issues.
https://forums.woodnet.net/showthread.php?tid=7330840
Yup, he said .0005". If that is what is required to the table saw to cut acceptable segments - forget doing it on the Shopsmith table saw. However, I seriously doubt and claim of .0005" (.0127 Millimeters) precision on any table saw and especially any table saw that we might have in our garage shops.
RFGuy
Dusty,
There only seem to be a few of us that own the MiterSet Standard who are active on the forum recently. When it comes to the MiterSet Segments product, intended to make it easier to cut wood segments, I think Cliffy and I are the only two who have it based on the lack of feedback on the forum. Sooo, I think this is a niche of a niche product. This is why I made reference to anyone doing segmented woodturnings on their Shopsmith. Granted they may be doing it with a different setup than a MiterSet Segments, but might be able to comment on how they achieve the required accuracy and what setup they use to do so. For sure you can make other things with a MiterSet Segments but the most common application is a segmented woodturning.
dusty
dusty
Even though I don't turn, I found this calculator interesting. It highlights the dimensional precision required.
https://www.blocklayer.com/woodturning-segments.aspx
This web site has a number of very interesting and educational calculators.
Cliffy
In my octagon cuttings I need to key off of both long sides of the molding (with the SS miter) which I think may, in itself, induce some error.
If a sled is used (rather than the miter gauge itself) that has a very long runner in the slot (cut to fit the slot very closely) this may be the best way to go. I will be trying this also in the near future. The long runner in table top will (should ) allow less error to be introduced along with being able to cut both ends by keying off the same side of the molding rather than having to swap sides.
Getting the correct 22 1/2 degree angle for the 8 sided polygon is the issue but I think I have that solved also but it may take a little trial and error once built. Once built however it will never change again.
To be honest I'm not too sure the MiterSet (in the SS) will be able to hold the tolerances needed for closed end multi segment turnings
