Insert Centerline

dusty · Post by **dusty** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:43 am

This is a new thread that exists as an off shoot of the thread "Saw Kerf with respect to the insert centerline".

I will not dwell on the previous thread except to say that the solution there led to a question regarding how the Sanding and/or Shaper Inserts center.

Bottom line is that they don't unless the user makes certain that they do while performing the Main Table Alignment Procedure. Furthermore, the the procedure does not address this alignment at all.

Why? Probably because it is not worth giving time to unless you are using the Shaper or Sanding Drums and experience physical interference with them and the associated insert.

In the attached images you will see that on one axis the cutout is pretty well centered. That is because the table is adjustable on that axis.

On the other axis, the cutout is off center by about 3/16". No big deal unless like I said you have mechanical interference.

This situation can be avoid by loosening all four trunnion bolts and moving the table appropriately on that axis (while not disturbing its position on the other axis:eek:).

[ATTACH]16285[/ATTACH]
Centered by Table Positioning

[ATTACH]16286[/ATTACH]
Measures 3/16" offset

[ATTACH]16287[/ATTACH]
Measures 3/8" offset

NOTE: I used the forstner bit here as a reference point only. The insert shown is intended to be used with the sanding drum. Please don't ask why I did not use the sanding drum.

Moving the table 3/32" is just not worth it to me.

JPG · Post by **JPG** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:51 am

dusty wrote:This is a new thread that exists as an off shoot of the thread "Saw Kerf with respect to the insert centerline".

I will not dwell on the previous thread except to say that the solution there led to a question regarding how the Sanding and/or Shaper Inserts center.

Bottom line is that they don't unless the user makes certain that they do while performing the Main Table Alignment Procedure. Furthermore, the the procedure does not address this alignment at all.

Why? Probably because it is not worth giving time to unless you are using the Shaper or Sanding Drums and experience physical interference with them and the associated insert.

In the attached images you will see that on one axis the cutout is pretty well centered. That is because the table is adjustable on that axis.

On the other axis, the cutout is off center by about 3/16". No big deal unless like I said you have mechanical interference.

This situation can be avoid by loosening all four trunnion bolts and moving the table appropriately on that axis (while not disturbing its position on the other axis:eek:).

[ATTACH]16285[/ATTACH]
Centered by Table Positioning

[ATTACH]16286[/ATTACH]
Measures 3/16" offset

[ATTACH]16287[/ATTACH]
Measures 3/8" offset

NOTE: I used the forstner bit here as a reference point only. The insert shown is intended to be used with the sanding drum. Please don't ask why I did not use the sanding drum.

Moving the table 3/32" is just not worth it to me.

Hmmmm. 3/32 Why does that sound familiar?

Bet you 'try' to center it the next time you loosen the table screws!:D

But then a new drill line would be needed!;)

P.S. Gotta wonder if the smaller rear trunion holes would prevent this offset also.

dusty · Post by **dusty** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:18 am

[quote="JPG40504"]Hmmmm. 3/32 Why does that sound familiar?

Bet you 'try' to center it the next time you loosen the table screws!:D

But then a new drill line would be needed!]
NO, I don't THINK I will. Well, maybe.

I have an unmodified trunnion and that may well get put back into an active Mark V one day but I don't envision doing an exchange simply for this reason. I did reflect on the possibility that the rear trunnion holes were their original, untampered with size for this very reason. It was much too easy to blame Shopsmith for a manufacturing error than to think that there was a technical reason for why the front trunnion was different than the rear trunnion. The fact that Nick did not chime in and explain this possible technological reason reenforced the logic.

These discussion simply reinforces that fact that the Shopsmith is so very simple while really being very complex.

I was successful at removing that drill line from my rip fence and I don't intend to put it back. I am looking for some good tape that I can scribe a line on. Something like Reible suggested. I tried a Scotch brand tape from the wife's desk drawer but it stuck too well.

JPG · Post by **JPG** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:22 am

dusty wrote:NO, I don't THINK I will. Well, maybe.

I have an unmodified trunnion and that may well get put back into an active Mark V one day but I don't envision doing an exchange for this reason.

I was successful at removing that drill line from my rip fence and I don't intend to put it back. I am looking for some good tape that I can scribe a line on. Something like Reible suggested. I tried a Scotch brand tape from the wife's desk drawer but it stuck too well.

Mylar tape?

For very temporary - masking tape?

dusty · Post by **dusty** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:29 am

JPG40504 wrote:Mylar tape?

For very temporary - masking tape?

Engineering supplies outlet?

No, I can't go there. I'll get to looking at drafting tools again and I can't afford that.

JPG · Post by **JPG** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:05 pm

dusty wrote:Engineering supplies outlet?

No, I can't go there. I'll get to looking at drafting tools again and I can't afford that.

I was thinking mylar 'scotch tape' and painter's masking tape.

Dollar tree shopping!;)

reible · Post by **reible** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:14 pm

I have been searching for a posting I did on the alignment issue from back a while. I was unable to find it until today when I went looking back for another post I did on another "new" thing here pattern sanding.

So take the time to read this old post and note the alignment issue has been around for a while now.

"This was great until I re-adjusted my main table and found the center of the insert was not the center of the main shaft anymore! There was no way to move things so they were aligned again san redoing the whole alignment and including this as one of he factor's in the alignment... no way was I going to deal with that. So you make another insert etc etc etc."

https://forum.shopsmith.com/viewtopic.php?t=2748

I'd have to say this issue has been with shopsmith forever as all tables require alignment and all use the same manor for the adjustment. Yep even the 10E....

Ed

dusty · Post by **dusty** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:06 pm

Reible: I think that I have returned my table to its original position. However, I don't know why I think that. I seem to have lost the logic needed to explain what I have done.

This brain fart sorta worries me.

I have bunches of photo images that I think are suppose to explain what I did but I can't make sense of them.

[ATTACH]16293[/ATTACH]
This shows the centerline of the arbor brought to the blade where I scribed a line to the insert.

[ATTACH]16294[/ATTACH]
This shows the drill line intersecting with the center line on the table insert. However the table was adjusted to get here.

The two circles are the cut outs on the drum sander and router inserts. Their center one line (diagonal) does line up with the drill line

[ATTACH]16295[/ATTACH]
These are the two new carriage stop rings and they are not the same size as the old one. I cannot explain why they would be different. Since the old one positions the carriage so that the center line of the insert aligns with the saw blade, I have chosen not to install the carriage stop rings.

I did put one in but it moved the cut line off the insert center line. I went back to the original stop ring.

I wish I could make sense of all this

JPG · Post by **JPG** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:21 pm

dusty wrote:Reible: I think that I have returned my table to its original position. However, I don't know why I think that. I seem to have lost the logic needed to explain what I have done.

This brain fart sorta worries me.

I have bunches of photo images that I think are suppose to explain what I did but I can't make sense of them.

[ATTACH]16293[/ATTACH]
This shows the centerline of the arbor brought to the blade where I scribed a line to the insert.

[ATTACH]16294[/ATTACH]
This shows the drill line intersecting with the center line on the table insert. However the table was adjusted to get here.

The two circles are the cut outs on the drum sander and router inserts. Their center one line (diagonal) does line up with the drill line

[ATTACH]16295[/ATTACH]
These are the two new carriage stop rings and they are not the same size as the old one. I cannot explain why they would be different. Since the old one positions the carriage so that the center line of the insert aligns with the saw blade, I have chosen not to install the carriage stop rings.

I did put one in but it moved the cut line off the insert center line. I went back to the original stop ring.

I wish I could make sense of all this

I don't suppose the new ones are 3/32" longer than the old one.

How long are they?

dusty · Post by **dusty** » Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:25 pm

JPG40504 wrote:I don't suppose the new ones are 3/32" longer than the old one.

How long are they?

The original one measured 1.367" and the new ones are 1.472" ( a difference of .105").