Some Shopsmith history (Kinda)

[dusty]

I don't see anything here that is untrue or unfairly represented. He gave credit where credit was due and pointed out many of the things we all wish were different with the Shopsmith.

What he did not mention is that back in late 70's and 80's the price of the Shopsmith and Special Purpose Tools were below what you would have to pay for standalone machine. That has changed today. I could buy all the tools my Shopsmith and SPT's represent for equal or less price and have solutions to many of the problems the author of the article above listed.

Today the only advantage I see with Shopsmith is the space savings. And I believe if we are really honest and had the room all of us would rather have the standalone machines instead.

Before anyone jumps on me I will only consider criticism from those that have bought a SS from Shopsmith at full retail. Sure there are a lot of guys that will say I'm wrong but they have never spent a dime with Shopsmith. They bought their SS for 1/10 actual cost from a private seller and buy all their parts on ebay or from junked machines.

I bought my machine from SS and to this day I still buy all my replacement parts from SS.

Hmmm This is a wide open invitation, Ed. I bought all my Shopsmith gear from Shopsmith except for my second bandsaw, my second Mark V and my Crafters Station.

[algale]

To be sure, there are fair criticisms to be raised about Shopsmiths (as with any tool) but I think some of Mr. Christoforo's criticisms are not fair and I will take a crack at deconstructing a few of them.

1. "The table is too small, too high and too rickety .... The fence is a joke." Don't know if this was a fair criticism of the Shopsmith machine he admittedly only used "a long time ago" because I never used one of those. But these issues -- other than height --clearly have been resolved with the 510/520.

2. "And while the blade is secured to the arbor with a nut, the arbor is secured to the power shaft with a set screw. That alone is enough to give me bad dreams." While it is true the saw arbor is secured via a set screw, his comment and fear mongering omit any mention of an important safety feature, which is the reverse taper on the spindle. Has anyone experienced a saw blade getting thrown from the machine in use? Has anyone heard of a saw blade being thrown from the machine in use?

3. "All other functions (jointer, planer, band saw, etc.) require the purchase of "attachments" which are simply small machines with no motors or stands that attach to the SS and use it's motor via a coupling (again secured by set screws). These typically do not cost any less than decent used single purpose tools of equivalent capacity. So it's hard to appreciate any real gain there." Classic apples to oranges comparison. He should compare new prices to new prices and used prices to used prices. I've seen a lot of used Shopsmiths with lots of SPTs go for a lot less than I could buy stand alone used tools of equivalent quality. In any event, his "real gain" comment is short-sighted. It fails to take into account the issue of the availability of repair parts. You can get new or used repair parts for virtually any Shopsmith SPT. When that used 20 year old band saw/jointer/planer by another maker breaks down you will probably end up have to buy another stand alone band saw/jointer planer.


4. "Also, the SS is not cheap (new ones start at three grand) so it is entirely possible that by looking around for good used tools, you could put together a much better basic shop without spending any more and you would be free from the hassle of having to stop work to reconfigure the SS every time you wanted to use a different tool." Same apples to oranges problem as with the SPTs comment above. In my experience you would be hard pressed to buy the 5 basic functions provided by the Shopsmith with used tools as cheaply as you can buy a used Shopsmith. And frankly you don't find many used horizontal boring machines at any price. Based on my perusal of the recent catalog of another well known manufacturer of tools, you would also be hard pressed to buy 5 new tools of the same capacity as the 5 Shopsmith basic functions for less than the price of a new Shopsmith. This is especially the case when you realize that when you buy a new Shopsmith (and many used ones, for that matter), you get a bunch of things that other manufacturers charge you separately for. Buy a new lathe from someone else and you won't get chisels thrown in and you also probably won't get the necessary drive center or tail stock thrown in, all of which you get with a new Shopsmith. Buy a new drill press and you likely won't get a large table or a fence for it (let alone drill bits) that come with a new Shopsmith. Buy a new table saw and you may not get a carbide (or any) blade let alone a push stick or feather board of push block. Some of these things are inexpensive. Others cost more. But they all add up and, yes, they contribute to the price of a new Shopsmith. But with a Shopsmith you are buying an entire, functioning system that is ready to go to work right out of the box without buying anything else. Other manufacturers sell you the basic machine (at prices comparable to the cost of the Shopsmith) and then make you buy the things that you need to operate the basic machine.

So, that's my response to Mr. Christoforo. I yield the soapbox.

[trainguytom]

I'm not sure the space thing is an issue in supplying my shop. Maybe. On the other hand, there are 4 Shopsmiths in it, so it's not that tight.
With that said, and the only machine that was purchased new was my dad's 10er, I actually would not have separate tools even if I had more room.

Here's why.

As a kid, I grew up with the old (then not so old) 10er, so I learned woodworking skills on it. After I moved into my place & my dad still had the Smith, I decided to build my shop around separate tools & began to accumulate them. When my dad got too old to use the 10er, I received it from him and, since I had a shop full of separate tools, I relegated it to our summer lake place in case I needed to do stuff there.

Then came:

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and

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I replaced the old 1950's kitchen cabinets & added storage in the tiny bedroom with stuff from a home that was demo'ed for a mini mall.
All the cabinets had to be cut, re-sized, and reconfigured to fit my space & ideas. All the paneling was recut from a previous (Shopsmith) paneling project. In the end, nothing was wasted & the 10er was up to the task.

As a result of this interior remodel project, I fell in love with the Shopsmith all over again. I gave my son my table saw & drill press, and sold off the other separate tools I had, brought my 10er home, and found another to replace it at the cottage. In my search, I found a Greenie MK5 & got hooked on it as well. After that, I got a little nuts & ended up with the cottage 10er, a shortened 510, a Goldie, my dad's 10er & another 10er.

So, I guess I have room for separate tools but have chosen the Shopsmiths. About the only possible weakness might be the table saw, although I'm tall & like the height. The tilting table isn't my favorite thing, but truthfully, I can't even remember the last time I made a non-right angle cut...and I'll bet that's true for lots of users, too.

I'm sure, like lots of Shopsmith users, I tend to romanticize a bit about how cool it is, but then again, maybe it just is that cool especially if you're the kind of person who is fascinated by neat (neato) engineering wonders.
That's probably why, besides my connection to my dad, that I'm drawn to it (them). I think every time I use one of the machines I'm amazed at what a great invention it was. (see, I can romanticize with the best of 'em)

So the DeCristoforo kid can have his opinion, because frankly, Dr. Goldschmidt, I don't give a damn.

[drlung]

Seems that David DeChristoforo is set screw challenged. The whole world is held together by set screws and o-rings. My last job was rebuilding pumps. Many of the main parts used set screws. They rarely came loose.

[Ed in Tampa]

Hmmm This is a wide open invitation, Ed. I bought all my Shopsmith gear from Shopsmith except for my second bandsaw, my second Mark V and my Crafters Station.

Dusty
The point I'm making is when I bought my Shopsmith it worked out to be the better deal (most bang for the buck) than buying separate machines.

However at today's price for a Shopsmith you can easily buy new individual machines that are superior to Shopsmith in their function for less than the cost of the Shopsmith.

If you buy used then of course you get a great deal because used Shopsmiths are selling for less than a 1/10 their normal retail costs.

Try to find a clean well cared hobbyist used Unisaw at 1/10 it's original retail cost.

[Ed in Tampa]

As for the set screw issue I have never heard of a blade coming off any saw bolt on arbor or set screw so I don't worry about that much.

But fail to tighten the set screw and use the machine versus failing to tighten the arbor nut. No the blade probably won't come off but you do stand a real good chance of set screw doing some real nasty damage scoring your quill arbor.

While the tablesaw will probably tighten the nut onto the blade with no damage.

[dusty]

Dusty
The point I'm making is when I bought my Shopsmith it worked out to be the better deal (most bang for the buck) than buying separate machines.

However at today's price for a Shopsmith you can easily buy new individual machines that are superior to Shopsmith in their function for less than the cost of the Shopsmith.

If you buy used then of course you get a great deal because used Shopsmiths are selling for less than a 1/10 their normal retail costs.

Try to find a clean well cared hobbyist used Unisaw at 1/10 it's original retail cost.

We beat this around every so often but I don't believe the theory. I CANNOT locate equipment of comparable quality for the price of a new Mark 7. Furthermore, if I did, half of it would have to sit out in the drive way under a tarp.

I have a small shop (larger than some) but not big enough to roll in a Unisaw (with table extensions) a planer, a lathe, a drill press and a jointer. Note that I did not even list a dust collector and sanding station.

It is the ability of Shopsmith to do all of this in a small shop (I have 400 sq') that makes it so attractive to me.

When I confront the naysayers that immediately fall back on precision and repeatability, I want to start a fight. I have the precision I need and the repeatability.

The only thing I don't have is the ability to produce finished goods at production speeds.

[dlbristol]

Interesting thread! I have never worried about the blade set screw, but I am very careful about getting the flat and the screw lined up. I am far more spooked by the method of hooking the planer to the head stock. It seems to me that if you were going to criticize some safety issue it might be that. There is a significant load on that little bit of plastic.

[algale]

I CANNOT locate equipment of comparable quality for the price of a new Mark 7.

Okay, I'm back on my soapbox. Dusty raises a good point about not being able to find less expensive tools of comparable quality.

To that I'd add that it is really very difficult to compare prices of other tools to Shopsmith for another reason: the unique capabilities of some of the Shopsmith tools makes it hard to decide which class of stand alone tool you should be comparing.

For instance, a great many bandsaws have throats 11-12 inches deep and 6 inches tall. Ignoring quality, at first glance these would all be comparable to Shopsmith's bandsaw. But those other bandsaws lack the ability to twist the blade for virtually unlimited cross cut size. Moreover the Shopsmith bandsaw is powered by a variable speed motor much larger than the fractional hp motors that power most bandsaws of similar throat depth/throat height as the Shopsmith. For most makers, you've got to go up to a much bigger bandsaw to get a 1+ hp motor. So, which bandsaw does the Shopsmith bandsaw compare to?

Many table saws have motors in the 1-1.5 hp category and thus seem a fair comparison to the Shopsmith. But, again, those saws lack the variable speed of the Shopsmith. Slowing the blade down will not only reduce burning on woods that are prone to burning, but will increase torque. On another thread on here, it was demonstrated that the Shopsmith table saw's torque is actually greater than table saws with fixed speed 2-3 hp motors. http://shopsmith.net/forums/showthread. ... que+unisaw So, what table saw should the Shopsmith be compared to?

Incidentally, while the tilting table in the table saw is usually cited as Shopsmith's biggest shortcoming, just this week there was a well received project on another forum (lumberjocks) for a 45 degree angle bevel sled meant to be used on tilting arbor table saws. http://lumberjocks.com/projects/61779 Why would you want to use a bevel sled on a tilt arbor saw? According to the comments, it is too hard to set the angle to exactly 45 degrees or to reset the blade to 90 degrees! While this shouldn't be an issue with a Wixey, for instance, I've read time and again about people who have carefully aligned their tilting arbor saws at 90 degrees only to find that the trunnions are not accurate and so when the saw is tilted on its arbor, the blade heels, causing burning and binding.

Getting back to the capability/feature question, it is hard to compare Shopsmith's 12 inch disc sander to other disc sanders, most of which are 10 inch, are usually fixed speed and have smaller tables. And there are no other conical sanding discs out there I know of.

Then you can get into the whole moveable quill, which let's you do things to tune cuts, sand parts to exact width and length and make all kinds of fine adjustments that just aren't found on the other stand alone tools.

All of this makes it very hard to compare prices of stand alone tools to Shopsmith tools. What looks like a fair comparison often isn't when you examine the details.

Ok, I'm off my soapbox again.

[robinson46176]

When these discussions come up I always point out this line from my signature: "I did not equip with Shopsmiths in spite of the setups but because of them".

I have had a bit of a woodshop since 1963 when I got married. Before that we did a little woodworking on the farm and I took a lot of shop in high school and some at BSU. BSU in 1961 was the very first time I ever saw a Shopsmith in person... Before that it was only in magazine ads.

I bought my first one in 1988 (510 and accessories, around $2500) [Yes it was new Ed ]

I started seriously planning for my retirement shops a half dozen or so years ago. While I tend to be pretty frugal (sometimes just cheap) by nature and at times loose cash available kind of comes in jumps and spurts I do have the resources to pretty much buy what ever I want if I give it that priority. I also have a lot of available square footage under roof and can put what ever I want into woodshop space. Saying here that space is not my limitation and neither is price if I really want something badly enough... I do have several stand alone machines including my table saw but my shop is Shopsmith based and will stay that way. I find the capabilities far more than adequate and the flexibility of them as a group completely unmatched. I bought over 2 dozen used SS's spending around $8,000 for them and a bunch of SPT's ignoring the cost of road trips. I have sold some surplus stuff but I don't really know off hand how my total spent / sold stuff balance stands but neither do I really care, this is hobby stuff not business. My point being that saving space nor saving money were part of my choice to be Shopsmith based.
I love my Ridgid table saw but it is a "stand alone" in the true sense. It will not interact with any of the other tools in the shop. The Shopsmiths will all interact (attachments, bits and pieces interchange with the other units). With them I have a bunch of table saws, a bunch of lathes, a bunch if drill presses etc. etc. etc.
As far as whats-his-face is concerned I got really tired of his pointless grousing and left the group we were both on long ago... Everybody gets to / needs to gripe or whine now and then but when it becomes constant I usually just ignore them or move on.


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