Dusty's Mark 7

brad_nalor · Post by **brad_nalor** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:18 am

Ryobi- Company is an insult to the industry. For a moment, forget the garbage china quality, low cost, safety and throw away mentality. Do a test and contact them on the 800 line for any part. They refer you to a fulfilment house and its a 30 day wait for delivery. Look at a brand new Ryobi saw or drill on the shelf at big box HD and notice the slop and poor tolerance in the motor shafts. Thats just for starters.

Back to the issue of safety: I think Shopsmith has to be the tops in the industry for educating and stressing safety. This is far more important than additional safety devices. For the Mk7 PowerPro DVR, I hope the law never gets to the point of screwing with Shopsmith's wonderfully evolved machine. It's much more than a table saw........ lathe, drill, etc. Could you imagine the hassles of a changeover from saw to other functions with a sawstop device?

SDSSmith · Post by **SDSSmith** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 1:18 pm

robinson46176 wrote:It just occurred to me that I don't have a blade guard for my 10-ER. Doesn't really matter, I don't have any reason to ever use it as a table saw. Still I may keep an eye out for a near freebie down the road just so one would be with it when it passes from my ownership (or I pass from its...). I don't recall them ever having a lower guard???
I like the slotted sides so you can actually see the blade. I think that the solid metal guard tends to contribute to the "out of sight, out of mind" thought process. Clear plastic guards (and that slotted guard) help remind people that there is a moving blade still under there.
Was that 10-ER guard an option?

.

The lower blade guard on the 10ER was an option and is very rare. Sorry for taking the thread off topic. Now back to Dusty's Mark 7 SawStop.

JPG · Post by **JPG** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:55 pm

brad_nalor wrote: . . . Could you imagine the hassles of a changeover from saw to other functions with a sawstop device?

Sorta like working on a steering column with an air bag!:eek::D

JPG · Post by **JPG** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:57 pm

robinson46176 wrote:It just occurred to me that I don't have a blade guard for my 10-ER. Doesn't really matter, I don't have any reason to ever use it as a table saw. Still I may keep an eye out for a near freebie down the road just so one would be with it when it passes from my ownership (or I pass from its...). I don't recall them ever having a lower guard???
I like the slotted sides so you can actually see the blade. I think that the solid metal guard tends to contribute to the "out of sight, out of mind" thought process. Clear plastic guards (and that slotted guard) help remind people that there is a moving blade still under there.
Was that 10-ER guard an option?

.

I believe I have a 10ER upper guard and bracket. However it is not slotted(blade not visible from the sides).

It is yours if ye be interested. All I need in an address!;)

fjimp · Post by **fjimp** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:25 pm

Okay so I am slow but cannot figure out the relation of this discussion to Dusty's Mark 7?! Jim

dusty · Post by **dusty** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:17 pm

fjimp wrote:Okay so I am slow but cannot figure out the relation of this discussion to Dusty's Mark 7?! Jim

It has been done again, Jim and I am a major perpetrator/participant. It is called "off topic" again.

fjimp · Post by **fjimp** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:11 pm

dusty wrote:It has been done again, Jim and I am a major perpetrator/participant. It is called "off topic" again.

Personally Dusty I think you need to take me up on my offer and bring your bride to Denver so she can see how fine your shop will be with the new Mark 7. Hey perhaps you can even teach me how to make something special with it while you are here.

Jim

Ed in Tampa · Post by **Ed in Tampa** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:12 pm

[quote="JPG40504"]GM has been around a good long time.

Generally speaking their products meet requirements.

So you would have no hesitation in purchasing a new model called a corvair.

Or a Hummer.

Yes that is new models, so not 'apples' to 'apples', but IMHO past performance is a maybe at best.

Like certain Mark 5 parts becoming 'NA'! Always available in the past!

Paying for 'reputation' is a bit like being a price gouging victim!]

Actually I owned 3 corvairs and I loved them. Of course you had to understand what they were and what they were not. From 1960 to 1964 they were a inexpensive form of transportation built like a tank. Then in 1965 through 1968 Chevrolet replaced the equal length swing arms in the rear with unequal length. This solved the spin out problem of Corvairs.

You did not drive a 1960 through 1964 Corvair hard through a turn, you drove it like it was a very inexpensive car that would go through a mountain of snow. A 1965-1968 Corvair could be driven hard into curves and be treated more or less like a sports car. Do that with a 1960-1964 and you would probably spin out.

Ed in Tampa · Post by **Ed in Tampa** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:42 pm

algale wrote:I'd hope that anybody financially backing a contracting company today would want to do a little more math than compare the costs of buying three $200 saws to three $400 saw (neither of which had a brake).

Instead, he'd want at a minimum to compare the costs of buying (in your example) three $200 saws without a brake to the costs of buying three $400 saws with a brake (or whatever its price was, even let's say the far superior $1500 existing contractor saw SawStop currently sells).

Then he'd want to go to his workers' comp insurer and ask, "how much can I save on my worker's comp premium today if I switch today to a safer saw?" Then he'd compare the "savings" from buying the $200 cheapo saws to any savings he could immediately obtain from his workers' comp insurer for switching to the safer more expensive saw and base his decision on that.

Actually we did do that we went to workers comp and asked what would save us the most money. Answer guided tools system, ditch the tablesaw completely.

Given that table saw prices (even those of cabinet saws) are trivial compared to workers' comp rates, I'd suspect that any immediate discount offered by the workers' comp insurer would dwarf the cost of buying the safer saws.Yes they are but worker's comp is expected buying a new tablesaw because someone let the old one fall off the truck is unplanned and tends to ending up costing more in the long run.

But even if his workers' comp insurer offered no immediate discount, a really sophisticated financial guy would take his analysis further. He'd try to figure out the probability of one of his workers actually having a major accident on the cheapo saw and how much that would increase his workers' comp premiums on a go forward basis and then compare those potential future costs to the increased costs of buying the safer saw to see whether it still made economic sense to buy the cheaper but less safe saw. He'd also want to know the cost in lost productivity time while the employee was out and/or the cost of hiring and training a new employee if the guy was hurt so bad he couldn't return to work.Again we were building houses not trying to build insurance actuary tables. The injuries we saw would have happened even if the table saw didn't have a blade on it.

Since Ryobi sells exclusively though Home Depot, you might want to look there. On a more serious note, it is debatable that offering a $400 saw with a brake would be a competitive disadvantage to Ryobi compared to others offering $200 saws without them. What is not debatable, however, is that Ryobi is $1.5 million poorer for not having put brake technology on its saws when it had the chance. Assuming that for every $200 table saw Ryobi sells through Home Depot it made a 25% profit, i.e. $50, Ryobi would have to sell 30,000 more table saw to make up for that one judgment. If Ryobi's profit per saw was only 10% ($20), which I suspect is a lot closer to the real number, Ryobi would need to sell another $150,000 saws to make up for that one judgment! Talk about your competitive disadvantage! By the way the licensing fee Gass wanted from Ryobi was 3% (8% if every manufacturer also agreed to his license), i.e. $6 a saw for a $200 saw. So Ryobi would have had to sell 250,000 saws at $200 before its royalty payments to Gass would have equaled the cost they are now paying for not taking a license from him.

But you miss the point nobody would buy a $200 saw that cost $400+ because it had sawstop technology on it. That is Gass' problem nobody is buying his products so he is trying to get the Gov to force people to buy it.

Supports my point above that table saw costs are trivial compared to the costs of workers' comp. Those are driven, in large part, by catastrophic injuries, one source of which (blade contact injuries) would be significantly reduced or eliminated if more manufacturers offered safer saws or more contractors switched to safer saws. More importantly, if you knew how worker's comp worked, why did you suggest in your prior post that Osorio verdict would somehow drive up workers' comp claims. It can't, for the simple reason that employers are immune from suit under workers' comp. If anything, if the Osario verdict (or more like it) encourages more manufacturers to offer saws with braking technology or if more contractors opt for SawStop, workers' comp rates should not continue to go up as a result of blade caused table saw injuries. And that would be a good thing for contractors. Actually I see people seeking less expensive methods to accomplish the same thing. Pre cut wood, guided tool technology, production shop manufacturing and elimination of jobs where a worker would use a saw. In the last few years of our business pre 2008 housing collapse we mandated myself or my son in law were the only ones to operate the tablesaw.

This is a why Vegas if profitable and why people who go to Vegas, as a whole, are not. People who aren't trained statisticians or actuaries are for the most part pretty lousy at calculating the odds of something good or bad happening to them.
Vegas is profitable because people think they can beat the house. You can't and the minute the house thinks you are winning by anything other than blind luck they stop your gaming. What people forget is Las Vegas is the monument to losers, bought and paid for on their losings. All that you see in Vegas was paid for by the losers.

I'm happy, that neither you nor your friends has ever seen a table saw blade accident. Neither have I (although I've met quite a few carpenters and cabinet makers who are missing fingers). But neither my anectdotal experience or yours or those of your friends combined makes up anything more than a statistically insignificant percentage of the population that uses table saws. There's no doubt that many such injuries have occurred and the stats have been compiled and can be read in the CPSC's rule making file.My guess is if sawstop technology is mandated it will be the end of the tablesaw. People will use chop saws, guided tools systems, power feed systems, CNC machines, etc. We were a rarity for having one on site. I know most production cabinet shops I visit have shifted to one of the above options. They may still have a tablesaw but only the owner runs it.

my comments in red Ed in Tampa

JPG · Post by **JPG** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:13 am

Ed in Tampa wrote:my comments in red Ed in Tampa

Next time pick a different 'RED'!