Truing, As Best You Can, Shopsmith Table Tops

[JPG]

Some explanation etc.

I am referencing the 'dead level' indications(the smaller digits above the larger ones).

Attached to saw blade, = 90.3. That implies past 90 which means the top of the blade leans towards the 'head rest' end.

Way tube = .3 degrees also tilted 'down' towards the 'head rest' end.

That is why I concluded the blade is perpendicular to the way tube.

Assuming(more about that later) the wixey was 'zeroed' to the blade, the larger digits also state 0/90.

Now the table indicated .2 degrees downward towards the 'base' end. That is where I came up with the table being .5 degrees off.

If I missed the actual direction the wixey was facing on the table. then that .5 should be .1 degrees. EDIT i did miss that!!!!

Anomalies!!!!

The dead center display seems to be contradictory. The display is reversed from that illustrated in the manual and is intuitively backwards.

A 'bubble' displayed on the right side of the arc should mean the left side is low. The slope indicator should then be on the left side of the pyramid. John's pix show the opposite(bubble right, slope right.

The slope indicator does not display when it has been 'zeroed'. If the wixey was zeroed to the blade, then the slope indication should not have been present in the table and way tube pix. ?????


EDIT Since the dead level indication is contradictory, I am not sure of any of this.

[dusty]

I just read all of your posts in this thread again and I do notice one thing. All of your errant measurements are small (1/8" or less). If your problem is what I have said, this tells me that you are dealing with very slight tilt errors <.2°. I hope your eyes are better than mine. I already know that the lighting in your shop won't be a problem.

I don't know about the eyes but I have been using a .004 feeler gauge (a postit note) in all this. 1/8" is huge. I am used to working in tenth of a thou not 1/8". I just bought a real feeler gauge this week end not that it will make any difference.

I think I keep doing something wrong but for the life of me I don't know what. My entire 40 year career in the Air Force and as an AF civilian was one of precision.

This really depends on what you are doing. A .1° tilt creates a 1/8" error if extended over the 50" length of the Shopsmith (Ext. Table to Ext. Table).

I am reading over this thread again and this is just a comment in passing.

[dusty]

Thank you Dusty. Just as I suspected. I asked so as to create questions in John's mind(he has so few on this subject ).

OK John, the new device indicates both aux tables are parallel to the way tube, but the main table is .5 degree 'off'. The main table tilts down towards the base casting 0.2 degrees. The tubes and aux tables tilt towards the headrest end 0.3 degrees

Of 'interest' is also the 'levelness' front to rear.


Keep in mind the stated accuracy of the relative angle is 0.1 degree, repeatability of 0.1 degree and resolution of 0.1 degree. Those are not all the same thing and can be accumulative.

0.1 degree at 50" results in over 1/16" deviation.




I assume you set the reference angle to either the table or the saw blade and the relative angle indications are referenced to that.(90.0 and 00.0). That is all one would have with the earlier model Wixey. The dead level indicator reveals a finer deviation.


P.S. The blade appears to be 'dead level' with the way tubes!!!!

First, the spirit level is NOT zeroed when you zero the gauge. The spirit level is factory calibrated and does not change. So the spirit level is actually showing that the floor is not level. The floor in fact slopes slightly to the left. That is what the gauge on both end tables show along with a conventional 4' level on the floor. I am at a complete loss as to why the gauge on the main table is opposite.

The gauge was zeroed to the blade since it is a fixed surface. Then all the other measurements were taken. So that shows that the blade is 90 degrees to all of the tables and the way tubes. Also the extension table measurements were taken after I used a straight edge to align them left to right and front and rear to the main table.

Yes, they are all the same front to rear except the left extension table. It is within the accuracy of the gauge. I used the way tubes for the reference surface and for some reason did not zero the gauge. I don't have a picture of the right hand extension table but it did read 90.8.

DSCF1655.JPG

DSCF1656.JPG

DSCF1658.JPG

Dusty asked in a previous post "I see that the tables are all level but are they coplanar?"

They are not level. The spirit level shows that. However they are all at the same relative angle to each other both left to right and front to back and they are all at the same height. Does that not make them coplanar? If not, then I guess I don't understand the definition of coplanar.

How does the blade appear to be 'dead level' with the way tubes? The gauge on the blade reads 00 and the gauge on the way tubes reads 90.

I am confused again. Yes, in this set of pictures the Wixey indicates that the tables are not level (front to back). The images that I was viewing when I commented that the tables were level were images showing tilt left to right. The tables were all 90 degrees to the blade.

[dusty]

OK, now here is the rest of the story.

To answer your second question Dusty, they were aligned one on the right and one on the left. Remember, this a MK 7 which some have said eliminates the alignment issue since both ends are the same. That may be true if both ends actually are the same. Remember I have four main tables here. Three had the way tube and table support tube holes at 90 degrees and one did not.

Well, my right hand end casting appears not to be the same as the left one. After zeroing the gauge on the blade and checking the table tops and way tubes, I checked all three table support tubes. As you can see the left hand extension table tubes and the main table tubes are fine. However, the right hand extension table tubes are not 90 degrees to the way tubes. They are tilted slightly to the left.

DSCF1659.JPG

DSCF1660.JPG

DSCF1661.JPG

As a result when you swap the tables end for end they no longer line up left to right. They are still fine front to back. They are both off very close to the same amount and in the right direction given the tilt of the right hand end casting holes. The straight edge placed at the back of the tables shows the same result.

DSCF1663.JPG

DSCF1664.JPG

I also measured the left hand table tube installed on the right end. It is off (within the tolerance of the gauge) the same as when the other table was installed on that end.

Edit: Correct picture now.

DSCF1669.JPG

The results of the Wixey on the table top is consistent with the amount the right end casting is off. Both tables are off the same amount and in the proper direction.

DSCF1667.JPG

DSCF1668.JPG

So in my case with a bad end casting the tables are not interchangeable. Just because the castings are the "same" does not necessarily mean they are all machined perfectly. Of course my right hand one could be within the print tolerance but in my opinion if it is that is a very loose tolerance.

John, in mage three and four there appears to be a slight tilt in the extension table legs. If you rotate that table 180°, does the tile change to the opposite direction?

[dusty]

That HOLD button on top of the Wixey looks like it might be easy to press accidentally. Is there a HOLD-status indicator on the display?

Looking back at the "anamoly" photo, there's a little black square showing on the side of the triangle thingy. But it's not showing on your most recent (correct) photo. What does that mean?

I have never pressed the hold button that I know of. The buttons are actually far enough apart to not actually press them accidentaly. At least for me.

As far as the the black square (diamond) not showing, I don't know. Probably a software issue?? Some times it is there and sometimes not. It is obviously intended to indicate which way the tilt is.

There is a Hold status indicator.

The Wixey in this image reports that it is on HOLD so you have pressed the Hold button at least once.

The diamonds indicate the direction of slope. If the Wixey is dead level there will be two diamonds (one on each slope of the triangle).

http://www.wixey.com/anglegauge/how/index.html

[jsburger]

Some explanation etc.

I am referencing the 'dead level' indications(the smaller digits above the larger ones).

Attached to saw blade, = 90.3. That implies past 90 which means the top of the blade leans towards the 'head rest' end.

Way tube = .3 degrees also tilted 'down' towards the 'head rest' end.

That is why I concluded the blade is perpendicular to the way tube.

Assuming(more about that later) the wixey was 'zeroed' to the blade, the larger digits also state 0/90.

Now the table indicated .2 degrees downward towards the 'base' end. That is where I came up with the table being .5 degrees off.

If I missed the actual direction the wixey was facing on the table. then that .5 should be .1 degrees. EDIT i did miss that!!!!

Anomalies!!!!

The dead center display seems to be contradictory. The display is reversed from that illustrated in the manual and is intuitively backwards.

A 'bubble' displayed on the right side of the arc should mean the left side is low. The slope indicator should then be on the left side of the pyramid. John's pix show the opposite(bubble right, slope right.

The slope indicator does not display when it has been 'zeroed'. If the wixey was zeroed to the blade, then the slope indication should not have been present in the table and way tube pix. ?????


EDIT Since the dead level indication is contradictory, I am not sure of any of this.

The small digit above the large angle digits is the deviation from level or vertical of the bubble level not the angle reading. See my post where I remeasured the main table. The bubble level now reads .3 left of center just like the extension tables and the way tubes That is the slope of the floor. Remember the bubble level is a true level and does not get zeroed out. Notice on the blade it is also .3 well 90.3. That is the deviation from vertical in reference to level. It is .3 just like we are .3 off from level. That is exactly as it should be.

[dusty]

Some explanation etc.

I am referencing the 'dead level' indications(the smaller digits above the larger ones).

Attached to saw blade, = 90.3. That implies past 90 which means the top of the blade leans towards the 'head rest' end.

Way tube = .3 degrees also tilted 'down' towards the 'head rest' end.

That is why I concluded the blade is perpendicular to the way tube.

Assuming(more about that later) the wixey was 'zeroed' to the blade, the larger digits also state 0/90.

Now the table indicated .2 degrees downward towards the 'base' end. That is where I came up with the table being .5 degrees off.

If I missed the actual direction the wixey was facing on the table. then that .5 should be .1 degrees. EDIT i did miss that!!!!

Anomalies!!!!

The dead center display seems to be contradictory. The display is reversed from that illustrated in the manual and is intuitively backwards.

A 'bubble' displayed on the right side of the arc should mean the left side is low. The slope indicator should then be on the left side of the pyramid. John's pix show the opposite(bubble right, slope right.

The slope indicator does not display when it has been 'zeroed'. If the wixey was zeroed to the blade, then the slope indication should not have been present in the table and way tube pix. ?????


EDIT Since the dead level indication is contradictory, I am not sure of any of this.

The small digit above the large angle digits is the deviation from level of the bubble level not the angle reading. See my post where I remeasured the main table. The bubble level now reads .3 left of center just like the extension tables and the way tubes That is the slope of the floor. Remember the bubble level is a true level and does not get zeroed out. Notice on the blade it is also .3 well 90.3. That is the deviation from vertical in reference to level. It is .3 just like we are .3 off from level.

Your conclusions about this being the result of floor slope is likely true but this is why I do not use that function of the Wixey much. When I am working on the Shopsmith, I use a reference surface (usually blade or Main Table leg) to zero the Wixey and then use it in the "relative mode" for all angle verifications.

[jsburger]

I just read all of your posts in this thread again and I do notice one thing. All of your errant measurements are small (1/8" or less). If your problem is what I have said, this tells me that you are dealing with very slight tilt errors <.2°. I hope your eyes are better than mine. I already know that the lighting in your shop won't be a problem.

I don't know about the eyes but I have been using a .004 feeler gauge (a postit note) in all this. 1/8" is huge. I am used to working in tenth of a thou not 1/8". I just bought a real feeler gauge this week end not that it will make any difference.

I think I keep doing something wrong but for the life of me I don't know what. My entire 40 year career in the Air Force and as an AF civilian was one of precision.

This really depends on what you are doing. A .1° tilt creates a 1/8" error if extended over the 50" length of the Shopsmith (Ext. Table to Ext. Table).

I am reading over this thread again and this is just a comment in passing.

It this case it was front to back but it is all moot now. I believe I said chalk it up to operator error. All is fine now. My last posts show everything to be correct given the out of square right end casting.

[jsburger]

OK, now here is the rest of the story.

To answer your second question Dusty, they were aligned one on the right and one on the left. Remember, this a MK 7 which some have said eliminates the alignment issue since both ends are the same. That may be true if both ends actually are the same. Remember I have four main tables here. Three had the way tube and table support tube holes at 90 degrees and one did not.

Well, my right hand end casting appears not to be the same as the left one. After zeroing the gauge on the blade and checking the table tops and way tubes, I checked all three table support tubes. As you can see the left hand extension table tubes and the main table tubes are fine. However, the right hand extension table tubes are not 90 degrees to the way tubes. They are tilted slightly to the left.

DSCF1659.JPG

DSCF1660.JPG

DSCF1661.JPG

As a result when you swap the tables end for end they no longer line up left to right. They are still fine front to back. They are both off very close to the same amount and in the right direction given the tilt of the right hand end casting holes. The straight edge placed at the back of the tables shows the same result.

DSCF1663.JPG

DSCF1664.JPG

I also measured the left hand table tube installed on the right end. It is off (within the tolerance of the gauge) the same as when the other table was installed on that end.

Edit: Correct picture now.

DSCF1669.JPG

The results of the Wixey on the table top is consistent with the amount the right end casting is off. Both tables are off the same amount and in the proper direction.

DSCF1667.JPG

DSCF1668.JPG

So in my case with a bad end casting the tables are not interchangeable. Just because the castings are the "same" does not necessarily mean they are all machined perfectly. Of course my right hand one could be within the print tolerance but in my opinion if it is that is a very loose tolerance.

John, in mage three and four there appears to be a slight tilt in the extension table legs. If you rotate that table 180°, does the tile change to the opposite direction?

Dusty, please re read the post. Those two pictures are of two different tables in the right end. As I explained in the post. the tables were aligned with a straight edge to the main table . Then the measurements were made with the Wixey. As first aligned the posts of the left and main table are parallel to the blade and 90 degrees to the table tops. The right extension table posts are not parallel to the blade. Then I switched the extension tables end for end and the deviation remained on the right. After the switch the left extension table posts are still parallel to the blade. Hence the right end casting is not bored square. That conclusion is also borne out by the extension table top no longer being level left to right (actually coplanar) when the tables are switched end to end.

[jsburger]

Some explanation etc.

I am referencing the 'dead level' indications(the smaller digits above the larger ones).

Attached to saw blade, = 90.3. That implies past 90 which means the top of the blade leans towards the 'head rest' end.

Way tube = .3 degrees also tilted 'down' towards the 'head rest' end.

That is why I concluded the blade is perpendicular to the way tube.

Assuming(more about that later) the wixey was 'zeroed' to the blade, the larger digits also state 0/90.

Now the table indicated .2 degrees downward towards the 'base' end. That is where I came up with the table being .5 degrees off.

If I missed the actual direction the wixey was facing on the table. then that .5 should be .1 degrees. EDIT i did miss that!!!!

Anomalies!!!!

The dead center display seems to be contradictory. The display is reversed from that illustrated in the manual and is intuitively backwards.

A 'bubble' displayed on the right side of the arc should mean the left side is low. The slope indicator should then be on the left side of the pyramid. John's pix show the opposite(bubble right, slope right.

The slope indicator does not display when it has been 'zeroed'. If the wixey was zeroed to the blade, then the slope indication should not have been present in the table and way tube pix. ?????


EDIT Since the dead level indication is contradictory, I am not sure of any of this.

The small digit above the large angle digits is the deviation from level of the bubble level not the angle reading. See my post where I remeasured the main table. The bubble level now reads .3 left of center just like the extension tables and the way tubes That is the slope of the floor. Remember the bubble level is a true level and does not get zeroed out. Notice on the blade it is also .3 well 90.3. That is the deviation from vertical in reference to level. It is .3 just like we are .3 off from level.

Your conclusions about this being the result of floor slope is likely true but this is why I do not use that function of the Wixey much. When I am working on the Shopsmith, I use a reference surface (usually blade or Main Table leg) to zero the Wixey and then use it in the "relative mode" for all angle verifications.

In this entire discussion I used the Wixey in relative mode just as you said. I don't think I ever made reference to the spirit level until JPG brought it up.