Mark 5/V Extension Table Alignment

[dusty]

Curious! When I said my aux table worked on either end of my Shopsmith I think someone said I was full of crap. Now you say you got yours to work. Curious!

Please now. I don't think anyone here said you were full of crap. Some may have thought so but never voiced that opinion.

Furthermore, I don't believe I have "solved" this problem. I have simply gotten down closer to the true cause.

One of the first lessons I learned was that before you can solve a real problem you must know what the "real problem" is. I witnessed many "solutions" that ultimately solved nothing.

[JPG]

. . .

I am sort of surprised though that the Pivot Arms do not center themselves when locked down.

What is there to cause them to do so?

The original headrest/clamp at least did so.

FWIW, your video shows "YAW" changing. Way tubes that is.

[Ed in Tampa]

Curious! When I said my aux table worked on either end of my Shopsmith I think someone said I was full of crap. Now you say you got yours to work. Curious!

Please now. I don't think anyone here said you were full of crap. Some may have thought so but never voiced that opinion.

Furthermore, I don't believe I have "solved" this problem. I have simply gotten down closer to the true cause.

One of the first lessons I learned was that before you can solve a real problem you must know what the "real problem" is. I witnessed many "solutions" that ultimately solved nothing.

Actually I think you may have found a problem with your Shopsmith but after watching your video in the other thread i don't think I have the movement you showed. I will have to double check but I think once my way tubes are in horizontal postion there is no movement front to back. I'm almost certain that when I apply the lock they are positioned and will not move. Again I will double check this.

[sehast]

Sounds great Dusty. I am happy you have finally put this to rest. Do you frequently move your Shopsmith around requiring raising it followed by that hard drop to the concrete floor? If so, it will be interesting to see if your alignment is sustaining over the next few months. Please let us know.

[dusty]

Curious! When I said my aux table worked on either end of my Shopsmith I think someone said I was full of crap. Now you say you got yours to work. Curious!

Please now. I don't think anyone here said you were full of crap. Some may have thought so but never voiced that opinion.

Furthermore, I don't believe I have "solved" this problem. I have simply gotten down closer to the true cause.

One of the first lessons I learned was that before you can solve a real problem you must know what the "real problem" is. I witnessed many "solutions" that ultimately solved nothing.

Actually I think you may have found a problem with your Shopsmith but after watching your video in the other thread i don't think I have the movement you showed. I will have to double check but I think once my way tubes are in horizontal postion there is no movement front to back. I'm almost certain that when I apply the lock they are positioned and will not move. Again I will double check this.

You said you had the ability to move extension tables. Maybe, just maybe this is a clue as to why.

However, being locked down tight is only part of the requirement. The Ways need to be properly positioned (centered at both ends) over the Bench Tubes.

[dusty]

Only time will tell, along with a bit more work using a 510 (my Shorty).

I do feel confident that this quest is over.

This response that I received from Jim McCann certainly helps to reaffirm my position. It also sets straight my thinking about the "set screw". I never really understood what/how that set screw was to work.

Jim McCann's response with a minor change to remove my real name. I did not get permission to post this but I trust that in the name of Customer Service there will be no complaint.

Good morning;

I have heard that there has been an on-going discussion about this on the FORUM. I have not read the forum and do not know what has been discussed. Below is my opinion on extension table table alignment on both ends of the machine.

Dusty is correct that this table alignment can be accomplished "by paying close attention to every detail". I too have aligned my Mark-V (first as a model 500 then upgraded in 1985 to the model 510) so that the fixed extension table, and rip fence, are aligned on both ends of the machine. I too, know it can be done.

The single, most important, contributing factor in this end-to-end table & fence alignment is the floor that the machine sets on. Dusty's statement that he feels that the tubes are "properly orientated with respect to one another" leads to, and supports this. My machine will not stay aligned everywhere I may use it in my shop. This is because my concrete shop floor is not perfectly flat.

When using my model-500 machine, nine-hundred-and-ninety-nine times out of one-thousand times I use my machine, this did not matter. The only time I used the table and fence on the left side of the Headstock is when cutting a sheet of plywood to a dimension that is not possible with the extension table and rip fence positioned on the right side. Now that I have upgraded my machine to a model 510, there are no cuts on a sheet of plywood that require I shift the extension table to the left. The the floating extension tables position the floating extension table even further to the right of the extension table on the right end of my machine so I can always cut past half way in the sheet.

By the way, I use my machine, for the most part, in one spot in my shop and do not move it. That is where I align it. That is where I use it. I have permanently marked my shop floor exactly where my machine sets. Also, I can not cut full sheets of plywood in my shop. Because of this I have to move my Mark-V outside on to the driveway. I have also marked the place on my driveway where this alignment works.

Now, with that said, the older machines that do not have the double tilt base, are the easiest to align the extension table on both ends. In the headrest, under the way tube tie bar, in the rest pad under the rear (outfeed) way tube, is a large setscrew. This setscrew can be adjusted to compensate for the floor and "twist" or "un-twist" the pair of way tubes so that the main work table can be aligned with the fixed extension table on both ends of the machine. In theory, on a perfectly flat floor, this setscrew should be positioned .050" (the same thickness as a dime) above the pad it is threaded into. This allows this setscrew to be adjusted both up and down, effecting table alignment in both directions.

Here is how I do it on a machine with a headrest.

Align your extension table to your worktable with the extension table on the right end of the machine and the worktable and headstock slid all the way to the right without touching the extension table.
When aligning your machine always make sure to secure all locks (Headstock, quill, carriage, table tilt, table height, and headrest) before aligning the tables.
Move the extension to the left end of the machine.
Slide the Headstock, table and carriage all the way to the left end of the machine.
Secure all locks.
Use a straightedge to raise/lower the infeed end of the of the extension table even with the infeed end of the worktable.
Move the straightedge to the outfeed end of both tables. Notice where the straightedge gaps against the worktable.
Without moving the extension table, raise the setscrew if the outfeed end of the worktable is low. Lower the setscrew if the worktable is low, relitive to the extension table. By adjusting the setscrew in the headrest, "twisting" or "untwisting" the pair of way tubes, you are changing the vertical position of the outfeed end of the main worktable.
When the tables are even, double-check the alignment of the tables on the right side of the machine. Again, make sure all the locks are secure before checing the alignment.

Model-500 machines that have been upgraded with the double-tilt base, do not have the headrest and can not make this adjustment. These customers have two choices:

Find a place in the shop where the floor is just right for this alignment to be automatic. Mark the floor it and use the machine there when extension table alignment is critical on the left end of the machine.
Buy a second fixed extension table and align it for the left end of your machine.

Model-500 machines machines that have been upgraded to either the model-510 or 520 with or without the double tilt base and the new Mark-7, do not need to move the fixed extension table to the left side of the machine. They can always use a floating table to the right side of the fixed extension table and/or the floating table to the left side of the worktable for added support when sawing plywood.


Have a GREAT day!!!

Jim McCann

[algale]

Very interesting! So the occasionally maligned set screw under the headrest is the key to alignment after all!

[JPG]

Key words, twist/untwist way tubes.

An objective in/of itself regardless of aux table alignment.

Yes I admit it can 'fix' aux table tilt which is caused by twist. A matter of cause / effect.

Twist is bad regardless.

Thank You Admin for calling this discussion to Jim's attention and to Jim for his comprehensive response and finally Dusty for his persistence in seeking answers!

[dusty]

Very interesting! So the occasionally maligned set screw under the headrest is the key to alignment after all!

I'm not quite there yet. I may be close but there are a couple things I need to see first. For years I have toyed with that set screw and never got anything good to happen as a result. Maybe I was looking in thew wrong place. Jim McCann's response to my email question gave me clues to that possibility.

I will feel like a dunce if it works now and after I spent $400 to get the Double Tilt thinking the real solution was there.

[JPG]

Regardless, the double tilt does eliminate it as a 'source'.

Appears leg flex is also a contributing factor after all.

Details - details . . .