Over head router vs router table

[reible]

First off this is not going to be a bashing of either type system. I own both and love them all. Some people here are trying to make sence of the differences and so I thought I would start out with the most basic of differences. I've covered this before either here or at the other site but this time I'll add a bit more detail.

To help understand how all this works lets go back to the basics... hand tools. In the case I'm making here going to take an example of a simple block of wood that you want to put put a groove in. You mark it and then take out the material you want to remove. The width is importain and lets say for this discussion the depth is also critical... ie you are going to see the joint. Now the basics you use doesn't matter because you are cutting this by hand and you work your way towards the depth you need making sure to not go to deep or to leave it too shallow. The surface you measure from is the surface that you are putting the groove in.

If you had highschool draftting or any exposure to designing things you will know that one surface is always the controlling surface and the side opposite is at most a reference. Like wise when you need a groove that is 1/2" deep it is dimensioned from the control surface to the bottom of the groove. If that doesn't make since then just trust me, this is how it works.

[ATTACH]2277[/ATTACH]

For now this is what the project looks like. Now we fast forward to a hand held router. In this case if we adjust the bit so it extends past the router sub-base by the 1/2" we will get a cut 1/2" deep. The control surface of the part and the control surface of the router contact each other and the result will be a groove 1/2" deep.

[ATTACH]2278[/ATTACH]

That makes since right? OK now lets go to the router table. In this case the bit is adjusted so it is 1/2" above the surface. The controlling surfaces for the table is the table top, and again the controll surface of the part is in contact with the table and again the depth of cut is 1/2".

[ATTACH]2279[/ATTACH]

Now we go to the over head router. Here is where things change. Again this is one of the reasons I don't use the the OPR for everything I do. In some cases the depth is not critical... a mortise is a good example of something that has an importain depth as in it has to be deep enough to make a tight joint and not to deep as to come through the other side, but it is not critical.

Here we see that the the control surface of the project is facing the table of the over head router, the depth of the bit is set by the arm.... In this case however the result is that the reference side of the part is used to determine the bit height set by the overarm.

[ATTACH]2280[/ATTACH]

What happens in cases like this is as shown in the next image, keep in mind what is shown is in case the project is undersized, if it were over sized the groove would end up deeper then needed.

[ATTACH]2281[/ATTACH]

What you see here can happen on various operations not just grooves. Think of the case where you are making say a door. The overhead router requires the face side to be up, if the wood thickness is even a little off then you end up with the back side of the door flat, ie it was against the table and the front side molding showing the difference. On a regular router table the face sides are down so the molding is fine and the back side is off........ Of course the better sized the wood you work with the better the overhead route would perform.

I hope this helps, the intent is to show you a side effect of using an overhead router. Take it for what it is worth.

Ed

[reible]

What do you know we have a part 2 coming up.

OK again this is not trying to fault any of the systems but is more inline with informing people of some of the "tricks of the trade".

As has been pointed out one advantage of having the router above the work piece is that you now can see what is really happening while you are doing it. I know some people see this as a disadvantage as they don't like to see the bit right out in the open but as long as the safety practices are used it is as safe as any thing else we do as woodworkers. I will not picture any of these operations as they have been shown here before.

However I will give you a short class on using the router table and doing this with out setting up stop blocks and that sort of thing. I know a lot of you already know about this but for the people who need to know here it is.

The router table needs to have a fence for this operation, you also need some tape, I vote for the blue panters tape that doesn't leave a residue. You can also mark right on your fence if you wish.

This sketch show the general setup, router table, bit, fence and tape.

[ATTACH]2282[/ATTACH]

The first step is to locate the in and out feed sides of the bit. Router unplugged and turned off please. A square works fine and the image shows you pretty much what I just said.

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[ATTACH]2284[/ATTACH]

The results show the width of the bit or if you like what the bit is going to cut out/remove. In some cases you will have the tape on the top of the fence... you don't want the workpiece to slide against the tape. In some cases you will want it lower just above the workpiece... or think of it as project dependent.

[ATTACH]2285[/ATTACH]

Now we go to the work piece and you can mark out the cut-out length. You will have to extend the marks up the side so you can see them from the front.

[ATTACH]2286[/ATTACH]

At this point we are ready to do the marking of the fence but I have reached the limit of 5 attachments so look for my next post....

Ed

[reible]

Hi again,

Now comes the interesting part, yes you need to add a second piece of tape. This tape will be marked as the starting spot. It uses the outfeed bit mark and the edge of the project piece. See below.

[ATTACH]2287[/ATTACH]

Now the other end is marked, this time using the infeed side of the bit and the work piece as shown.

[ATTACH]2288[/ATTACH]

The marking is done and now its time to route. It is a simple matter of dropping the workpiece onto the bit until it reaches the table. It will look something like what is pictured... The location of the cut is from the tape mark on the infeed and the project piece.

[ATTACH]2289[/ATTACH]

Now you simply feed the piece in the proper direction as shown.

[ATTACH]2290[/ATTACH]

When the stock reaches the line on the outfeed table the first pass is done. Depending on how deep you have cut and how deep you need to go it may take several passes.

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Once again the limit has been reached so look for the next post...

Ed

[reible]

To remove the piece you do as shown below.

[ATTACH]2292[/ATTACH]

The end result...

[ATTACH]2293[/ATTACH]

This is just a simple way of doing this using only tape and should work on almost any fence. I should also point out that this works on the overhead router as well.... This way you don't have to mark all matching parts just the one you use to setup with (that goes for both router systems).

Ed

[a1gutterman]

Thank you for posting this explanation, Ed. I, for one, look forward to using the OPR when I, someday , purchase one. In the mean time, I will continue to enjoy working with my router tables. There are many router operations that can be done on a router table, many that can be done with the OPR, and many that can be done with a hand held router. I agree with you that none of those set-ups can do the best job possible at every router operation. For some, it seems like the OPR is the best choice, for some the router table is the best choice, and for others, a hand-held router is the only choice.

[charlese]

In discussing the OPR vs. a Table routing system, I cannot remain neutral. Not because I own an OPR, but because I have both and have seen the differences and capabilities of both. I don't apologize for my opinions here - they are tried and proven facts.

Thanks for your interest and effort here Ed! Your two posts clearly indicate the differences between tools (overhead vs. table router) in setting up the ends of a stopped groove. The use of a table requires many measurements and marks to get precise ends. The OPR requires only end marks on the workpiece. The woodworker's eyes are used to determine the ends of the cut.

However, so far, we have forgotten another dimension necessary to make that groove in the right location.

There has to also be a determination of the location of the groove from the sides of the piece. The groove might be in the center of the piece - or it might be located off center. The setting of this location is also critical. This distance is determined by the distance between the fence and the edge of the bit closest to the fence.

How is this distance set? Usually, on both table and OPR we use precise brass set-up blocks, wood blocks, calipers, among a few. Then rout a test piece.

Now let's think of changing this measurement. With a standard table fence this is usually an adjustment of one side of the fence by loosening and moving that side about half of the distance required. Followed by more set-up and testing.

However with the OPR and Incra and Jointech this is accomplished with a turning of a precise adjusting knob. Incra and Jointech advertise to the nearest .001". What I have found is the OPR/Shopsmith adjustable stop collar allows an adjustment of this accuracy and better. A 1/16th turn on the stop collar gives 1/128". This can even hypothetically get finer.

Now let's visit how a person can mill a dado in the center of a larger workpiece. Most router tables are not large enough to do this - The only choice here is to use a hand held router. The hand held router is a good way to make a through dado, but how does one make a stopped dado in the center of a larger workpiece? With a hand held and a measured stop block?

I don't really know, but I suppose the Incra and Jointech are both capable of making stopped dadoes in the interior of large workpieces. My hunch is; this change of operation would require a major set up change.

The OPR, however is easily capable of making such a dado in the interior of a workpiece with only a minor set up. A sliding table and a pencil mark on the workpiece is all that's needed.

This post does not even venture into making of joints. More of that later. But for now, How does one set up a router table to make mortises in the ends of longer boards? This is a simple operation with the horizontal OPR.

I have found I am unashamedly biased toward the OPR as being more versatile, than a table, and just as capable, while less expensive, than the Incra and the Jointech. I do use a table for simple edge routing as there is minimal set-up repaired. There is no substitute for simple and accurate. The table will remain an important part of my shop.

[reible]

In discussing the OPR vs. a Table routing system, I cannot remain neutral. Not because I own an OPR, but because I have both and have seen the differences and capabilities of both. I don't apologize for my opinions here - they are tried and proven facts.

Please keep in mind we are all expressing our opinions here, I too own an OPR be the older version, I also own an Incra ultra pro system and the Jointech system as well as two Oak Park router tables (ie Router Workshop), and several more purchased and home built ones, the old Joint-Matic (horizontal) that shopsmith sold and that is not even the tip of the iceberg of my router equipment. If I had to go with just one piece of router gear it would be without a doubt something very simple and thus very easy to make jigs with and for... for that it has to be the Oak-Park system. The biggest thing is to be flexible and have tools that are flexible... there are maybe fifty ways to do something and the fun of woodworking for me is doing a lot of them and finding what I like and what works for me, and the reason I'm a shopsmith owner in the first place.

Thanks for your interest and effort here Ed! Your two posts clearly indicate the differences between tools (overhead vs. table router) in setting up the ends of a stopped groove. The use of a table requires many measurements and marks to get precise ends. The OPR requires only end marks on the workpiece. The woodworker's eyes are used to determine the ends of the cut.

I think you may have missed the point here, I showed a way of doing blind cuts but I will also say I do the same thing on the OPR. I mark only one piece of wood then do my setup... the remaining pieces I use only the marks on the fence and the wood ends for doing the cutting. I have found for me this is safer and faster then marking all the wood piece and trying to watch the cutter come to the line on the workpiece. For say 2, 4, 6 parts marking parts might as fast but when doing say 20 of them.... no contest as far as I'm concerned. And again this is only one example of maybe 10 or 15 ways I've done it and do it depending on way more factors then we can discuss here.

However, so far, we have forgotten another dimension necessary to make that groove in the right location.

I expressly left this out because this is a wash between systems for the most part. I can one of the incra system on my OPR, in fact shopsmith had the table setup for this and sold the orginal incra jig for the older version of the OPR. I guess if I wanted to I could also use my newer Incra or Jointech on it if I needed to.

There has to also be a determination of the location of the groove from the sides of the piece. The groove might be in the center of the piece - or it might be located off center. The setting of this location is also critical. This distance is determined by the distance between the fence and the edge of the bit closest to the fence.

How is this distance set? Usually, on both table and OPR we use precise brass set-up blocks, wood blocks, calipers, among a few. Then rout a test piece.

Now let's think of changing this measurement. With a standard table fence this is usually an adjustment of one side of the fence by loosening and moving that side about half of the distance required. Followed by more set-up and testing.

I personally don't do it his way but again everyone to his own.

However with the OPR and Incra and Jointech this is accomplished with a turning of a precise adjusting knob. Incra and Jointech advertise to the nearest .001". What I have found is the OPR/Shopsmith adjustable stop collar allows an adjustment of this accuracy and better. A 1/16th turn on the stop collar gives 1/128". This can even hypothetically get finer.

Just so we are clear here. Both the Incra system and Jointech system employ a system that dial in .001 movement. This is done with markings of .001", you can how ever move a half or quarter of that if you wish, not that you would ever need to do that. Also keep in mind 1/128" is .0078, I was using my jointech system to saw pieces that thick this past summer and doing repeat cuts... that is an extreemly small amount of movement and only needed for some special projects. What is more importain is to be able to move a foot away and still be able to have the same thing... the rack on the shopsmith limits that movement so you have, you then need to do a step and repeat of the fence setting... big difference when that happens.

I should also say that the Jointech comes with a center finder, on my incra setup this was an extra cost item, can't say how the Incra comes now?? This along with the zeroing system allows some operations to go very fast and combining additional scales with color coding you can do some amazing things....

Now let's visit how a person can mill a dado in the center of a larger workpiece. Most router tables are not large enough to do this - The only choice here is to use a hand held router. The hand held router is a good way to make a through dado, but how does one make a stopped dado in the center of a larger workpiece? With a hand held and a measured stop block?

Most router tables are too small for really large pieces of wood, however the Inca and Jointech are only limited by what the shopsmith can handle... well more like what the user can handle, I sure wouldn't want to be routing to the center of a 4'x8' piece of inch thick MDF all on my own... Much better to go to a hand held router and jig.

I don't really know, but I suppose the Incra and Jointech are both capable of making stopped dadoes in the interior of large workpieces. My hunch is]Sorry not a problem with these systems. Plus you have the use of all of the extra tables/extensions/in and out feed tables for lots of support.[/color]

The OPR, however is easily capable of making such a dado in the interior of a workpiece with only a minor set up. A sliding table and a pencil mark on the workpiece is all that's needed.

The OPR can do what maybe 16" in the normal position... extended 20"??? This is a limit that tables don't have. However again how big project can a person handle... Even if the shopsmith can cut a sheet of plywood in half with my back I could never do it anymore... I can however cut it up smaller with guides and hand power tools.... No mater what the capacity I think I'd go with a handheld when the project get large enough.

This post does not even venture into making of joints. More of that later. But for now, How does one set up a router table to make mortises in the ends of longer boards? This is a simple operation with the horizontal OPR.

Again router tables can do a lot of things, a lot depends on how you have them setup and if you want to make fences and jigs. I really don't see any advantages to just one system over a bunch of others depending on how you set them up and what you are willing to do to make them work. I can think of several joints I make that while they can be done on an OPR it would be a LOT harder to do them. I think the same can be said the other way round. Even hand held router can do a lot more then cut edges and trim things. We haven't even began with the the use of things like guide bushing and maybe this is not the place to do that... I think if you are really really interested in routers you should check in at the router workshop forum and I mean all of you reading this.

The soul and heart of routers is making jigs for them, if you love making jigs then your only limitation is the time you have... almost anything can be done with a router. I'm never going to even finish a small portion of the jigs I have sketches for, or ones I've found or seen other places... keep in mind I've spent 32 years working with routers and I still am find new and different things to do and new and different ways of doing them. As much as I love my shopsmith I think I love my routers more.

I have found I am unashamedly biased toward the OPR as being more versatile, than a table, and just as capable, while less expensive, than the Incra and the Jointech. I do use a table for simple edge routing as there is minimal set-up repaired. There is no substitute for simple and accurate. The table will remain an important part of my shop.

I guess one can never do a head to head of OPR to table system because there are so many many different router systems to match against. Heck I think it would be hard to match the old OPR system to the new one... I know the new one can do somethings mine can't but I also know I can do things with my set up that the new one can't do. If I were a rich enough man I'd own both of them... no idea where I'd find room to put new one....
but I would.

Ed

[iclark]

This post does not even venture into making of joints. More of that later. But for now, How does one set up a router table to make mortises in the ends of longer boards? This is a simple operation with the horizontal OPR.

Chuck,

could you please elaborate on the concept of "horizontal OPR"?

after seeing your post, I downloaded and read the OPR manual. I couldn't find horizontal use in the manual. obviously, I could have missed something.

how do you set up the fence and guards?

Ivan

[charlese]

Hi Ivan - I can best answer your horizontal OPR question by letting Nick show you. http://www.shopsmithacademy.com/SS_Arch ... uter_2.htm If you wish, you can fast forward to minute 25 of that video to see the horizontal mode.

Here is the link to all of the archived Sawdust sessions. There are several dealing with the Overarm Router. http://www.shopsmithacademy.com/Sawdust_Sessions.htm

Best Wishes!

[charlese]

Hi again, Ed! Boy! it's good to have you back!

I think you may have found the crux of why I like the OPR so much better than my standard router table in this statement: "The soul and heart of routers is making jigs for them, if you love making jigs then your only limitation is the time you have... almost anything can be done with a router. I'm never going to even finish a small portion of the jigs I have sketches for, or ones I've found or seen other places... ".

I just hate making jigs for one operation, thinking I'll have to save them in case it they are ever needed again.

I love the Mark V because it is one large adjustable jig all by itself. Likewise I prefer the OPR because it also serves as a mechanically adjustable jig.

I still have use for my router table and will never get rid of it. However I find the OPR easier to use than the table.

You mentioned stop grooving many pieces is easier than drawing a lot of lines on wood. My preference varies from that in that I clamp the pieces together and using a square draw two lines across all pieces. (that is if I can fit all pieces within the reach of my longest square - 2 feet)

The reason I brought the Incra and Jointech systems into the discussion is because I believe there is a substantial price difference between them and the OPR and it's probably a toss up on accuracy. (At least as far as working with wood is concerned) The accuracy thing would be literally so small so as we could say "splitting hairs".