Festool Domino and CT26 First Thoughts

[RFGuy]

I may have found the difference between the Festool CT26E and the ShopVac™ running HEPA filter bag and filter cartridge. It looks like the 1st stage (filter bag) is only trapping down to 5um which is far worse than the filter bags that ShopVac™ sells. I can't get full specs on the 2nd stage for both to compare, but it looks like Festool's choice of filter bags means far more fine dust is getting through to the 2nd stage (HEPA filter cartridge). It looks like the Festool bags are more porous and let through significantly more dust particles below 5um, which means there is more volume of <5um particles that could leak through the 2nd stage filter (HEPA cartridge). I do believe this explains some of the performance differences that I see between the ShopVac™ and the Festool CT26E in my shop.

Festool Filter Bag:
"The Festool filter bag also serves as a pre-filter and is able to trap dust particles down to five millionths of a meter, or 5 microns."

ShopVac™ Filter Bag:
"stops ultra fine dust and is 99.96% efficient down to 0.3 microns."

[sehast]

This detector from Amazon is cheap enough that I think I will just go ahead and order one since I have no other way to measure the dust level in the shop. Thanks for the tutorial on measuring dust levels.

[reible]

Finally moved my meter to the shop today. It wasn't showing much but then I wasn't doing any dusty tasks other then moving around which could have the potential to kick up some dust but didn't seem to.

On the CT26 the bag gets the larger partials and what is left of the smaller ones should be trapped in the next filter down to the stated limits. Yes some bits will get through but it should be minimal.

I have read numerous testimonials from users of the CT's about using them in peoples homes but none have stated that they use a meter to measure air quality. I know a lot of the larger bits get collected and I can tell a huge difference in what is left to clean up but again I have had no way to measure air quality.

Again my preferred method of working is out in the driveway where natural air currents work to dissipate concentrations. Still like to wear a dust mask no matter where I work if I'm generating dust.

Hope Festool can work this out so we all understand what is happening.

Ed

[RFGuy]

Steve,

Yeah, this Amazon counter is definitely a great value. I haven't had it long, but if it holds up, it is worth every penny IMHO. Once you have one, I think you will be very happy that you did. There are some woodworking tasks that I thought were "cleaner" than they are and vice-versa. My ceiling mounted air cleaner is noisy on high speed, so I am checking in periodically on the Dylos counter in the shop and I adjust the air cleaner speed up/down to try to keep the air breathable while I work. Since I have had it and use this technique, I seldom have the particle counts get high enough to cause me allergy problems. Before this, I would sometimes have to leave the shop and go in because of sinus problems. Yes, I can detect high particle counts unfortunately, but I prefer to catch it on the Dylos before it gets out of hand. I only break out the PAPR for high particle count activities like sanding, but given my CT26 performance, I may have to rethink that...

Ed,

Did you set the counter for particle count display or PM2.5 display? The PM2.5 and AQI page isn't that useful, unless you are monitoring indoor air quality in the home and want more of a stoplight chart (red, yellow, green) for what your air quality is. I find the actual particle counts a lot more interesting and they update/change quicker. You will see more movement in the particle counts, particularly since this Amazon counter has an instantaneous readout without averaging. Yes, it will fluctuate if dust is kicked up, e.g. walking around and doing other tasks. I can't say my shop is perfect, but I do get good results in my shop running my ceiling mounted JDS air cleaner. It does a really good job of scrubbing the air. Sometimes I open the garage doors and blow out the garage with my mini leaf blower. The particle counts get really high doing this but drop fast with the air cleaner running. In between, I vacuum and clean up the best that I can around the shop. Invariably there will be some residual fine dust always on the walls, on the floor and ceiling, on workbenches, tools, etc. for any shop. However, using the JDS air cleaner on a regular basis, I don't see a big uptick in particle counts when I walk by the Dylos counter. If on the other hand, I don't run the JDS enough, I can quickly see the particle counts rise just by walking by it. That is why when I did the Festool measurements that I posted earlier, I ensured that the shop was scrubbed pretty good, then with the JDS turned off, heat turned off, etc., that the counts really didn't move by me walking by it. I also ran the Festool CT26 for several minutes with nothing at the hose input, just to make sure the blower exhaust wasn't kicking up any dust that was getting to the Dylos counter (it wasn't, so I had good confidence my measurement was capturing fine dust escaping from the CT26 and not just shop dust getting kicked up).

Yeah, I am really hoping that Festool will find a flaw in what I am doing or come forward with a replacement or procedure to look into this. I saw a complaint similar to mine, but slightly different on the FOG forum a while back. Festool supposedly replaced their CT36 with a new one and took the unit back for testing. No idea if that fixed it for that person or not. Of course, LOTS of other people rave about the CT26 so I am still not sure if I have a bad unit or if I am just missing something here. I like to follow the data though, and right now the data is pointing me towards a problem...

[RFGuy]

This is why I can't work in my driveway. At times, the particulates are far greater outside of the shop than inside of it in Phoenix area. Too many people burn fires in their fireplaces here on no burn days. This combined with construction site dust & smog and sparse rainfall create high particulate counts in this area. We get a lot of weather inversions, so instead of the smoke & other particulates going up in the air and blowing away, it instead falls to ground level and stays there. Air quality in my shop and house are significantly better than outside, but it takes a lot of diligence with air cleaners. Walking outside smells like walking into a chimney here this morning...AQI of 76 outside my house this morning.

Particle Counts Outside:

IMG_4514.jpg (123.87 KiB) Viewed 18338 times

AQI Outside:

IMG_4513.jpg (118.04 KiB) Viewed 18338 times

Phoenix AQI Forecast for Today:

PHX_AQI.jpg (115.51 KiB) Viewed 18338 times

[reible]

I see what you mean about your air quality, we get a couple of O3 alerts every year but that is about it. We live west of Chicago with a normal wind pattern blowing in from the west which helps.

The whole shop has had time to settle over night so when I get out there I want to check the numbers before I get into doing anything. I do plan to do some cutting with the Kapex so that should show up something.

It would be interesting to use this in the car, have to believe riding in a car has to be interesting since all the movement of air combined with the overall effects of the cars and trucks has to be a major contributor to numbers. May do that in a couple of days, of course if you live more in the city or commute there it will be more of a potential problem. We are more to the county side of things where farming and nature have more of a potential.

Ed

[RFGuy]

Just wanted to give some updates on the Amazon laser particle counter that Ed mentioned. I have been running it side by side to my Dylos counter for comparison. The Dylos counter readout gives particle counts from the 0.5um and 2.5um sensors that are running averaged (10s buffer) and the counts equate to the amount of dust particles measured in 1/100 of a cubic foot. So, multiply by 100 if you want to normalize it to how many particles in a cubic foot of air. The sensor module inside the Amazon counter is model # PMS5003 and is manufactured by Plantower (http://www.plantower.com/en/content/?109.html). Being a Chinese company, the particle counts are in a different volume since they are metric over there. From the specs, it is counting for 0.1L volume, or about 1/3 what the Dylos is counting in. This combined with the fact that the Dylos averages and this one doesn't, means I am comparing apples to oranges unfortunately ...though in theory multiplying the Amazon counter measurement by a factor of ~3 may normalize it to the Dylos reading. Still the averaging makes it hard to compare these two...unless I sample it with a computer - which can be done because of the following:

A local source for the laser counter module by itself (no MCU or LCD display) is from Adafruit (https://www.adafruit.com/product/3686). I might pick one of these up and do some programming with it using an Arduino. It would be nice to build some custom versions of these that I can network (and datalog) in the house/shop. A really nice feature of this laser particle counter module is that it detects 0.3um, 0.5um, 1.0um, 2.5um, 5.0um and 10um. Not sure if these are individual detectors in it, or if it is somehow interpolating. Still, having this data is really nice, e.g. at times my Dylos shows relatively low particle counts for the 0.5um and 2.5um sensors it has for my shop, but the Amazon counter shows high counts for 0.3um alone. What does this mean? Well, with enough air & dust kicked up in the shop and with air cleaners running, it is possible to have relatively clean air in the shop at 0.5um and above, but in reality the difficult to trap (in a filter) particles around 0.3um are saturating the air. Bottomline, the air, at times, isn't as clean as I thought even though the readings on the Dylos hinted they were. Really can't beat the price on this Amazon counter module, but I value it more for the additional particle detection ranges which give me more insight over my Dylos' readings.

One peculiarity that I noticed with the Amazon particle counter is that it tracks the readings on the Dylos pretty good most of the time, but then after running for a long time, I started getting particle counts 10-20x more on it (compared to the Dylos). Unplugging and plugging it back in usually fixes it. What I think is happening is that the Amazon counter may not be designed for running in a high dust environment like a woodworking shop. The laser particle module is small and has a small fan on it. This is important as the fan is what keeps a steady stream of air to be sampled from the environment passing across its detectors. The Dylos counter is much bigger and correspondingly has a much bigger fan. I suspect the dust settles in and saturates the detector after a while. Perhaps the fan goes in a short boost mode when first powered on to clean the detectors, so this is why unplugging it fixes it (just an educated guess though). Long term, I think it would make sense to build a small enclosure to mount it in and put a computer case fan on the side for ventilation. I think it needs a little more airflow to keep the measurements consistent so that it doesn't glitch like this. Anyone that purchased this off of Amazon may want to consider this, if they see the glitch as well.

Specs for the PMS5003:

PMS5003.jpg (58.65 KiB) Viewed 18132 times

Manual for the PMS5003:
https://cdn-shop.adafruit.com/product-f ... l_v2-3.pdf

[sehast]

I got mine the other day and have been running it in the house and the shop but nothing very scientific. It stays at zero in the house except in the morning when the heat and fan comes on. So far in the shop its stayed pretty low after some routing and a tracksaw session. I will take some time soon to try to really ring it out in the shop but it will only be relative measurements since I don't have anything for comparison.

[RFGuy]

I got mine the other day and have been running it in the house and the shop but nothing very scientific. It stays at zero in the house except in the morning when the heat and fan comes on. So far in the shop its stayed pretty low after some routing and a tracksaw session. I will take some time soon to try to really ring it out in the shop but it will only be relative measurements since I don't have anything for comparison.

Steve,

Are you measuring 0 on the PM2.5 display or on the particle count display? The little side button toggles between these. Yeah, if you are sitting on zero for PM2.5 most of the time, that is pretty good air quality which is great.

[dusty]

Wow, talk about "long winded".

i REALLY THINK YOU GUYS SHOULD CARRY ON THREADS LIKE THIS OVER ON THE FESTOOL SITE.