Great point Ed. I agree with what you say. Your post coupled with what Paul and I have said are close to the same thing. SS could put some thing together that would put it back on the map as a very viable system in the tool selling business. They need to stay away from the marketing suits and stick with the woodworkers. That is where the success is. We know how good the machine is. The key is to get the knowledge out to others in a way that would get them to buy one. Perhaps my idea of small offices with part time staffs that would be regionally based is a viable idea. Each regional store could have a small inventory that would allow for shipping and receiving of tools and repairs so that owners would not have to pay for transport back to Ohio.
I would like to see Hands On as a magazine again. Looking at it online just isn't the same. To be honest, I often forget about it all together when I look for ideas.
How can we help Shopsmith?
Moderator: admin
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jerryjankura
- Silver Member
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- Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:06 am
How can we help Shopsmith
One item that I haven't yet seen, reading through this thread, is helping ShopSmith establish price points that their equipment should sell at and then let ShopSmith figure out how they can manufacture a product to those price points.
Two days ago, we were around the Dayton area and decided to stop in at the outlet store. Much to our surprise, the doors were shuttered, the vans were parked next to the building, and there was a large "space available" sign on the front of the building.
Since we'd just been to their warehouse sale, this was quite a shock.
After coming home, I took a look at the web site to try to find out what was going on. While looking at ShopSmith's web site under "pricing," I found that the cheapest model that I could purchase cost three thousand dollars. That's quite a bit of money for someone to pay for one tool (granted it's multipurpose) if they're just getting into woodworking and don't really know if they're going to enjoy it. I've had my machine for over twenty years, have "upgraded" it to a 520 and enjoy working with it on nearly a weekly basis; still, I'd have to think two or three times if I had to purchase a replacement, as it would cost about thirty-six hundred bucks to replace what I currently use.
I wonder how many machines ShopSmith would sell if their "standard" product was priced around a thousand bucks. What would it take for ShopSmith to make a machine to sell at that price point?
-- Jerry J.
Two days ago, we were around the Dayton area and decided to stop in at the outlet store. Much to our surprise, the doors were shuttered, the vans were parked next to the building, and there was a large "space available" sign on the front of the building.
Since we'd just been to their warehouse sale, this was quite a shock.
After coming home, I took a look at the web site to try to find out what was going on. While looking at ShopSmith's web site under "pricing," I found that the cheapest model that I could purchase cost three thousand dollars. That's quite a bit of money for someone to pay for one tool (granted it's multipurpose) if they're just getting into woodworking and don't really know if they're going to enjoy it. I've had my machine for over twenty years, have "upgraded" it to a 520 and enjoy working with it on nearly a weekly basis; still, I'd have to think two or three times if I had to purchase a replacement, as it would cost about thirty-six hundred bucks to replace what I currently use.
I wonder how many machines ShopSmith would sell if their "standard" product was priced around a thousand bucks. What would it take for ShopSmith to make a machine to sell at that price point?
-- Jerry J.
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dusty
- Platinum Member
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- Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:52 am
- Location: Tucson (Wildcat Country), Arizona
Shopsmith Mark V Starter Model
Jerry
I really like your concept. A $1000.00 starter model Mark V, Model xxx.
But I am unable to imagine what could be stripped from a basic Mark V, Model 510 (even a 500) that would allow the price to be dropped to a $1000.
That is about what a Mark V sold for at the Texas State Fair in 1995 after a special $600 reduction for the Fair Days.
I would like to purchase a car like my 1967 Plymouth Barracuda for the price that I paid then for a new car; $2600 with the SportsRally Package and upgraded interior with leather bucket seats, center console and tinted windows and racing strips. Incidently, I still have that car if someone wants to make an offer(minimum offer accepted $22,000).
I really like your concept. A $1000.00 starter model Mark V, Model xxx.
But I am unable to imagine what could be stripped from a basic Mark V, Model 510 (even a 500) that would allow the price to be dropped to a $1000.
That is about what a Mark V sold for at the Texas State Fair in 1995 after a special $600 reduction for the Fair Days.
I would like to purchase a car like my 1967 Plymouth Barracuda for the price that I paid then for a new car; $2600 with the SportsRally Package and upgraded interior with leather bucket seats, center console and tinted windows and racing strips. Incidently, I still have that car if someone wants to make an offer(minimum offer accepted $22,000).
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jerryjankura
- Silver Member
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:06 am
I'm not sure that a thousand bucks is the right price point for a model, but every time I've read through these types of discussions about ShopSmith, everyone seems to skirt around the product price issue, yet it's one that I don't think will go away.
I really hate to be the pessimist, as I've got a shop full of ShopSmith brand items ranging from a Mark-V-520, Sawsmith 2000, standalone planer (my first Shopsmith brand acquisition), jointer, strip sander, belt sander, bandsaw, scroll saw, and jointmatic which I use regularly. However, Dr. Phil's oft stated comment "You can't fix what you don't admit." holds true for Shopsmith.
I really hate to be the pessimist, as I've got a shop full of ShopSmith brand items ranging from a Mark-V-520, Sawsmith 2000, standalone planer (my first Shopsmith brand acquisition), jointer, strip sander, belt sander, bandsaw, scroll saw, and jointmatic which I use regularly. However, Dr. Phil's oft stated comment "You can't fix what you don't admit." holds true for Shopsmith.
Excellent post Jerry! Usually when a small company, like Shopsmith takes a loss of $700M with sales of $2 million - there is a major problem between manufacturing cost, inventory and selling price. Of course this means manufacturing costs must go down and selling price must go up at the same time keeping inventory low. These three things are what would hurt us - the Shopsmith users most. Many times quick fixes involve lay offs and down sizing. These last two fixes are only good for the very short run. The big problems are the first three and they must be fixed to survive.jerryjankura wrote:I'm not sure that a thousand bucks is the right price point for a model, but every time I've read through these types of discussions about ShopSmith, everyone seems to skirt around the product price issue, yet it's one that I don't think will go away.
I really hate to be the pessimist, as I've got a shop full of ShopSmith brand items ranging from a Mark-V-520, Sawsmith 2000, standalone planer (my first Shopsmith brand acquisition), jointer, strip sander, belt sander, bandsaw, scroll saw, and jointmatic which I use regularly. However, Dr. Phil's oft stated comment "You can't fix what you don't admit." holds true for Shopsmith.
Octogenarian's have an earned right to be a curmudgeon.
Chuck in Lancaster, CA
Chuck in Lancaster, CA
Price is an issue to every one of us (read the opted purchases of members of this list of competitive brands) and most probably more so to any newcomer to the clan.
As I reflect on the accurate comments of Jerry and Charlese I cannot help but think of the days when I was the production manager of a manufacturing firm and was faced with a similar problem. My two cents worth to SS would be to re-evaluate true manufacturing costs in line with a projected sales plan.
Though I am a recent arrival to this brand and forum it is clear to me that the outstanding design behind Mark V is not a hasty hindsight but the result of a consistent and meticulously thought out process of innovations and upgrades of a basic configuration. Such was this well planned design process that the latest models are compatible with earlier models inasmuch as dimensions and interchangeability. The power headstock can have its motor changed or upgraded within its dimensional confines. Mounting ends, bench tubes and way tubes are all interchangeable, accessories fit older and newer models, in other words the hard core of the Mark V is so well designed that its design dimensions do not necessarily get outdated. Improvements of the basic design are enhancements not radical changes.
Having said this it would seem obvious to me that much of the hard core molds, machining templates and jigs are amortized to a very high degree (except for individual life expectancies which can be calculated realistically). Manufacturing tools must have been refined to reach an optimal point of efficiency and duplicity of each and every production stage.
If this is correct SS is not faced with complete overhauls of their production lines to ship ever changing new models to compete with their competitors. In fact they are their own competitor in this particular case.
I do believe that the simplicity of the inventory required to both manufacture and assemble new units would indicate that of the three crucial items to be considered: cost, inventory and selling price, the burden of SS's marketing outcome and market penetration would most probably be an issue of compatibility of the first two (cost and inventory) in determining the third (selling price) in line with a planned sales projection.
No doubt that SS prices can be lowered and might mean a transient downsizing and layoff of some personnel to make ends meet (something that has already happened) but unless the end result is an increase of sales these measures are of little or no value.
There is no doubt that there is an established loyalty to the brand that has permeated generations to date. But in a changing world where items like space and time are sought after and dreamed commodities unless there is a lure in the price the idea of longevity is no longer a factor in purchasing (other than to the older generation which extinguishes itself as time goes by).
I am sure that unless we are able to make SS accessible to a greater number of the consumer population we will be remembered as one of the best and long lasting machines ever built.
Shopsmith need not sacrifice its quality and spit out plastic expendables. It needs to be attune with market demands because it is through satisfying those demands will they be able to recoup the stature, reputability and recognition it one had.
This forum of loyal supporters is probably one of the best thermometers to take into consideration when planning marketing strategies. If the loyal who have already spent thousands nevertheless advocate for a price consideration and even state they opt for a competitive brand as their tool supplier in different cases, this must be taken very seriously. I would.
I greatly admire what I have but cannot be blind to reality. I can justify spending more for quality but the truth is that some of SS prices drive me to consider other options because of their disproportion. An accessory cannot cost more than a stand alone, at least not for me who no longer purchases machines for production and profit.
If I have a Mark V with accessories (planer, band saw, jointer, router table) it is because they came with the second hand unit I purchased and globally was justified. If I had to go out to purchase a new SS I could satisfy all my requirements with individual standalones and still pay less than I would for the basic Mark V.
As I reflect on the accurate comments of Jerry and Charlese I cannot help but think of the days when I was the production manager of a manufacturing firm and was faced with a similar problem. My two cents worth to SS would be to re-evaluate true manufacturing costs in line with a projected sales plan.
Though I am a recent arrival to this brand and forum it is clear to me that the outstanding design behind Mark V is not a hasty hindsight but the result of a consistent and meticulously thought out process of innovations and upgrades of a basic configuration. Such was this well planned design process that the latest models are compatible with earlier models inasmuch as dimensions and interchangeability. The power headstock can have its motor changed or upgraded within its dimensional confines. Mounting ends, bench tubes and way tubes are all interchangeable, accessories fit older and newer models, in other words the hard core of the Mark V is so well designed that its design dimensions do not necessarily get outdated. Improvements of the basic design are enhancements not radical changes.
Having said this it would seem obvious to me that much of the hard core molds, machining templates and jigs are amortized to a very high degree (except for individual life expectancies which can be calculated realistically). Manufacturing tools must have been refined to reach an optimal point of efficiency and duplicity of each and every production stage.
If this is correct SS is not faced with complete overhauls of their production lines to ship ever changing new models to compete with their competitors. In fact they are their own competitor in this particular case.
I do believe that the simplicity of the inventory required to both manufacture and assemble new units would indicate that of the three crucial items to be considered: cost, inventory and selling price, the burden of SS's marketing outcome and market penetration would most probably be an issue of compatibility of the first two (cost and inventory) in determining the third (selling price) in line with a planned sales projection.
No doubt that SS prices can be lowered and might mean a transient downsizing and layoff of some personnel to make ends meet (something that has already happened) but unless the end result is an increase of sales these measures are of little or no value.
There is no doubt that there is an established loyalty to the brand that has permeated generations to date. But in a changing world where items like space and time are sought after and dreamed commodities unless there is a lure in the price the idea of longevity is no longer a factor in purchasing (other than to the older generation which extinguishes itself as time goes by).
I am sure that unless we are able to make SS accessible to a greater number of the consumer population we will be remembered as one of the best and long lasting machines ever built.
Shopsmith need not sacrifice its quality and spit out plastic expendables. It needs to be attune with market demands because it is through satisfying those demands will they be able to recoup the stature, reputability and recognition it one had.
This forum of loyal supporters is probably one of the best thermometers to take into consideration when planning marketing strategies. If the loyal who have already spent thousands nevertheless advocate for a price consideration and even state they opt for a competitive brand as their tool supplier in different cases, this must be taken very seriously. I would.
I greatly admire what I have but cannot be blind to reality. I can justify spending more for quality but the truth is that some of SS prices drive me to consider other options because of their disproportion. An accessory cannot cost more than a stand alone, at least not for me who no longer purchases machines for production and profit.
If I have a Mark V with accessories (planer, band saw, jointer, router table) it is because they came with the second hand unit I purchased and globally was justified. If I had to go out to purchase a new SS I could satisfy all my requirements with individual standalones and still pay less than I would for the basic Mark V.
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edflorence
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 673
- Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:14 pm
- Location: Idaho Panhandle
What it takes to sell a SS
This thread has got me thinking…jerryjankura wrote:
I wonder how many machines ShopSmith would sell if their "standard" product was priced around a thousand bucks. What would it take for ShopSmith to make a machine to sell at that price point?
-- Jerry J.
I agree, the price of a new 510 comes with a hefty dose of sticker shock. But I think we can all agree that Shopsmith provides value for the money. Look at the customer satisfaction, the durability of the machine, its performance and its far-ranging capabilities. The SS gets high marks on all these good measures of value. So, the question becomes “is the price fair for the value received?”
In 1954, the basic unit, including motor, went for something like $200. According to the Consumer Price Index, in 2007 it takes 1,528 of today’s dollars to get the same spending power as those old ’54 dollars. If a new 510 comes in at $3,000 or so, then comparing apples to apples, a new 510 is really only twice as expensive as an original “greenie.” But the Consumer Price Index is a general average of purchasing power, and I suspect that skilled manufacturing labor rates have risen faster than the average, so giving SS the benefit of the doubt, let’s say that the 2007 price equivalent to the 1954 price would be something like $2,000. OK, we still have to justify that last $1,000. Are the larger motor, the enhanced table and fence system and the improvements to the drive system, the guards and the quill bearings, etc worth a $1,000? Personally, I think so. I guess everyone has to make up his own mind on that. I wonder sometimes if the price of a new 510 seems steep to the average SS owner because that owner (self included !) has no trouble remembering when first class postage was 6 cents, gas was 30 cents a gallon and a bottomless cup of coffee could be had for a quarter.
In my view, a bigger concern than the price of the new Shopsmith is that other social changes have conspired to erode its potential market. From the beginning, one of SS’s strongest selling points has been the compactness of its equipment. “Imagine”, a typical ad might say, “An entire woodshop that takes up no more space than a bicycle!” This was a great selling point for years and is what first induced many, including me, to build our shops around a Shopsmith. I still work out of a small space (11 x 22) with my Mark V and I like it that way. Small spaces are easier to heat and to clean and harder to lose things in! However, in 1950 the average American home was 983 square feet in size and these days the average is over 2300 square feet!! Over the same period of time the size of the average family has shrunk, with the net result that the average homeowner doesn’t face the same space limitations his father did. Nowadays, instead of having to tuck a SS into a corner of his little single car garage, Mr. Homeowner can set up shop in one of the 3 bays in his MacGarage. And he has, if he chooses, room for stand alones. Will he get the same value for his dollars? Probably not, unless he opts for higher end machines. Nonetheless, his spacious garage allows him the choice between SS and standalones. The challenge for Shopsmith is to convince somebody who is not pressed for space that the SS is still his best choice. I am not sure how you go about doing that.
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Ed in Tampa
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 5834
- Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:45 am
- Location: North Tampa Bay area Florida
I think all of you know I tose quarters around like they were manhole covers. 
But when I bought my SS 500 back in 84 time frame I could NOT buy the separate single purpose machines for the same price. I don't recall the exact numbers but I know I mathed it out every way to Sunday and proved the SS was my cheapest option.
Today I could easily outfit my shop for less than a SS 520 costs. Even more so if I did it based only on the the machine functions I use. If I add the special purpose machines such as bandsaw, jointer, biscuit jointer, and etc. I could still do if for less than just the cost of SS 520.
Hybrid saw $700 -$900
Drill press radial arm so it can bore horizontally $300
Lathe $800
12 inch disk sander $200
Add function like
Jointer 6 inch $400
Bandsaw 14" $400
biscuit jointer PC $200
Router/ Router table $350
Reversing shaper $350
I used higher end prices I could do it a lot cheaper using Sears or Harbor Freight tools.
But when I bought my SS 500 back in 84 time frame I could NOT buy the separate single purpose machines for the same price. I don't recall the exact numbers but I know I mathed it out every way to Sunday and proved the SS was my cheapest option.
Today I could easily outfit my shop for less than a SS 520 costs. Even more so if I did it based only on the the machine functions I use. If I add the special purpose machines such as bandsaw, jointer, biscuit jointer, and etc. I could still do if for less than just the cost of SS 520.
Hybrid saw $700 -$900
Drill press radial arm so it can bore horizontally $300
Lathe $800
12 inch disk sander $200
Add function like
Jointer 6 inch $400
Bandsaw 14" $400
biscuit jointer PC $200
Router/ Router table $350
Reversing shaper $350
I used higher end prices I could do it a lot cheaper using Sears or Harbor Freight tools.
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edflorence
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 673
- Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:14 pm
- Location: Idaho Panhandle
Ed-
First off, apologies for the error in my post. I of course meant to say 520 not 510 .
I agree that you can outfit a shop for less than a new SS costs. You probably always could if you were willing to make some of your own equipment, as many did back in the day of the recycled washing machine motor and the plywood bandsaw frame. Granted the frugal woodworker can pick from a wider array of much more satisfactory possibilities these days. The points I was trying to make are:
1) When you consider quality, access to parts, ease of maintenance, customer support, are you really buying equivalent value? I add up your stand alones (not counting the last three) and I come up with nearly 3 grand. Your are almost at the cost of the new SS and you have likely compromised on the quality, access to parts etc.
2) Stand alones take up a lot of room. this may not be an issue for professional shops and some owners of recently built homes, but often is an issue for many other folks. To get the versatility of the Shopsmith while taking up so little room is a value and has a dollar amount associated with it. In other words, for many of us its worth paying a little more to save space. For some people, it may be the only practical way they can squeeze a power tool shop into their lives.
As always, there is probably no perfect answer. One size will never fit all situations. To me, the SS still looks like it holds its own for folks who want a lot of machine in a little space.
Ed
Idaho Panhandle
MkV 500/505, bs, dc3300, jointer
First off, apologies for the error in my post. I of course meant to say 520 not 510 .
I agree that you can outfit a shop for less than a new SS costs. You probably always could if you were willing to make some of your own equipment, as many did back in the day of the recycled washing machine motor and the plywood bandsaw frame. Granted the frugal woodworker can pick from a wider array of much more satisfactory possibilities these days. The points I was trying to make are:
1) When you consider quality, access to parts, ease of maintenance, customer support, are you really buying equivalent value? I add up your stand alones (not counting the last three) and I come up with nearly 3 grand. Your are almost at the cost of the new SS and you have likely compromised on the quality, access to parts etc.
2) Stand alones take up a lot of room. this may not be an issue for professional shops and some owners of recently built homes, but often is an issue for many other folks. To get the versatility of the Shopsmith while taking up so little room is a value and has a dollar amount associated with it. In other words, for many of us its worth paying a little more to save space. For some people, it may be the only practical way they can squeeze a power tool shop into their lives.
As always, there is probably no perfect answer. One size will never fit all situations. To me, the SS still looks like it holds its own for folks who want a lot of machine in a little space.
Ed
Idaho Panhandle
MkV 500/505, bs, dc3300, jointer
Edflorence,
I can understand you comments but the reality you mention is not true across the nation and less still abroad. At least not here in BC.
Economics force families to consider two incomes and smaller families in line with income budgets. Interest in woodworking might be still comparable to what we knew but the surplus available to spend on tools and machinery is meager compared to what was available decades ago. Limited resources mean stretching cash as much as possible (even if it means sacrificing quality) to be able to accomplish "something" today while they can. Most consider the purchase of a machine only as a means to save money and then list the remainders on Craig's List.
Younger generations already operate with enormous credit card debts which might take some their whole life to pay back. To place an additional 3000 balance on a credit card might be suicidal for some.
Those that can afford the luxury we have are mostly retired (with a canceled mortgage and a home mostly furnished) and empty nester's who now have some sort of surplus to play with. I am not considering trades who use these tools for work - they most of the times opt for one time use only tools so as not to freeze capital and do not care about longevity. [Example: if I have to cut lumber, why would I need a lathe?]
And should I agree with your concept of bigger and more spacious homes that does not mean there is also money available to fill that space with expensive machines.
Lets not forget that those of younger generations who could still be in a position to purchase machinery seem to be more interested in electronics.
One thing is true: solving marketing problems today is no easy task and whatever route one follows there will always be some dregs left on the roadside. But I am sure that SS can benefit from a multitude of opinions which might provide them with an inkling of what their loyal supporters believe.
I can understand you comments but the reality you mention is not true across the nation and less still abroad. At least not here in BC.
Economics force families to consider two incomes and smaller families in line with income budgets. Interest in woodworking might be still comparable to what we knew but the surplus available to spend on tools and machinery is meager compared to what was available decades ago. Limited resources mean stretching cash as much as possible (even if it means sacrificing quality) to be able to accomplish "something" today while they can. Most consider the purchase of a machine only as a means to save money and then list the remainders on Craig's List.
Younger generations already operate with enormous credit card debts which might take some their whole life to pay back. To place an additional 3000 balance on a credit card might be suicidal for some.
Those that can afford the luxury we have are mostly retired (with a canceled mortgage and a home mostly furnished) and empty nester's who now have some sort of surplus to play with. I am not considering trades who use these tools for work - they most of the times opt for one time use only tools so as not to freeze capital and do not care about longevity. [Example: if I have to cut lumber, why would I need a lathe?]
And should I agree with your concept of bigger and more spacious homes that does not mean there is also money available to fill that space with expensive machines.
Lets not forget that those of younger generations who could still be in a position to purchase machinery seem to be more interested in electronics.
One thing is true: solving marketing problems today is no easy task and whatever route one follows there will always be some dregs left on the roadside. But I am sure that SS can benefit from a multitude of opinions which might provide them with an inkling of what their loyal supporters believe.