How can we help Shopsmith?

[jerryjankura]

Ed from Idaho wrote:

1) When you consider quality, access to parts, ease of maintenance, customer support, are you really buying equivalent value? I add up your stand alones (not counting the last three) and I come up with nearly 3 grand. Your are almost at the cost of the new SS and you have likely compromised on the quality, access to parts etc.

My comments:

Unfortunately, we're preaching to the choir on this forum, which understands that ShopSmith offers a quality product and which already has a sizeable investment in ShopSmith brand tools. Unfortunately, it's the unbaptized multitude that is used to paying Wal*Mart prices for everything that comprises ShopSmith's new customer base - the folks who purchase the Mark-V and many of the SPT's. Folks like us who already have a well equipped ShopSmith shop are more of a low ticket replacement parts consumer.

The ShopSmith machine is a compromise as well. While it's unmatched as a drill press, it's use of a tilting table for its table saw mode renders it inferior (as a table saw) to most of the mid range table saws that use a tilting arbor. Metal tubes used as lathe ways render the that mode not as robust as a lathe with cast iron ways. We could go on comparing the ShopSmith to other woodworking tools, but the issue ShopSmith must grapple with and solve is that, by and large, the public who is interested in purchasing woodworking tools does not see the value in the ShopSmith tool; if they did, ShopSmith would be a growing company rather than one wilting on the vine.

One of these notes mentioned a loss of $700,000 on sales of 2 million; A year or two ago, I remember ShopSmith having sales of 3 million and just being slightly in the hole. So, we're seeing a situation where ShopSmith can't really increase their income by simply raising prices. If anything, those prices have to come down. But even then, they really can't guarantee that sales will increase enough to cover a reduction in price.

-- Jerry J.

[dusty]

A loss of $700,000 on sales of $2 Million has just been thrown into the discussion but no one bothered to mention where these numbers come from.

Frankly, without a source being stated, I am inclined to doubt the numbers and I believe others should too.

[charlese]

A loss of $700,000 on sales of $2 Million has just been thrown into the discussion but no one bothered to mention where ese numbers come from.

Frankly, without a source being stated, I am inclined to doubt the numbers and I believe others should too.

They are traded publicly Whoops! They were public until recently- (SSMH). Past years' correct info is available on the net. I mis-stated their income as 2 million. That was quarterly income (ending November 2006) I should have said 12 million, but the net figure (-.7 mil) is O.K. in round figures.

Revenue in the quarter ending March 2005 was 13.4 million - Total net was a loss of 0.8 million. In March of '04 they netted 1 million. In '03 they netted 3 million. I think the '06 info is in the Dayton paper that was posted on this forum.

Here is December 9th 2005 news: http://www.bizjournals.com/dayton/stori ... ily30.html

[Ed in Tampa]

Ed-

First off, apologies for the error in my post. I of course meant to say 520 not 510 .

I agree that you can outfit a shop for less than a new SS costs. You probably always could if you were willing to make some of your own equipment, as many did back in the day of the recycled washing machine motor and the plywood bandsaw frame. Granted the frugal woodworker can pick from a wider array of much more satisfactory possibilities these days. The points I was trying to make are:

1) When you consider quality, access to parts, ease of maintenance, customer support, are you really buying equivalent value? I add up your stand alones (not counting the last three) and I come up with nearly 3 grand. Your are almost at the cost of the new SS and you have likely compromised on the quality, access to parts etc.

2) Stand alones take up a lot of room. this may not be an issue for professional shops and some owners of recently built homes, but often is an issue for many other folks. To get the versatility of the Shopsmith while taking up so little room is a value and has a dollar amount associated with it. In other words, for many of us its worth paying a little more to save space. For some people, it may be the only practical way they can squeeze a power tool shop into their lives.

As always, there is probably no perfect answer. One size will never fit all situations. To me, the SS still looks like it holds its own for folks who want a lot of machine in a little space.

Ed
Idaho Panhandle
MkV 500/505, bs, dc3300, jointer

Ed
You said when you tally up my last three you almost came to $3000.
Remember the Bandsaw and Jointer are additional cost items at SS also so the price to buy them with a 520 would be near $4000 so even at $3000 standalones are $1000 less.

Actually I don't think I compromised any quality or parts. In fact if I bought all Delta/Dewalt I would have a local factory parts/repair shop within 15 miles of my house. They stock all common maintaince parts.

The point I'm trying to make is when I bought my SS back in the 80's you couldn't buy the 5 basic tools nor a bandsaw nor a jointer for less than SS was selling theirs. Then when you considered SS excellent service, ready parts availability, quality, and space savings it became a no brainer. I even considered the compromise of tilting table and etc and still concluded it was the best deal around. Today you can fine (read this as very fine) high quality standalone equipment for a lot less money than SS is charging.

Just take the bandsaw. For $500 you can have a SS 11" driven by the SS or you can have a Rikon, Delta, Jet, or Grizzly 14" all with vac ports, motors ranging from 1hp-1/1/2hp, most have blade tension releases, some have roller bearing blade guides, most can be increased to 12" cut height, some come standard with fences, and mitre gauge slots.
All four have been recognized in some national magazine as outstanding in purpose. To me for the SS to compete in this field the price would have to be around $200-$300 or $200 dollars cheaper than it is. It has a 3" disadvantage, doesn't come with a motor, doesn't come with a stand, table is cast aluminum versus cast iron, wheels are aluminum versus cast iron in most of the cited machines. To me there is simply no competition and that is the problem. At one time SS was a very very strong competitor.
Ed

[edflorence]

Hi Ed-

Well, you do make a strong case. You are right, adding in the cost of the jointer and bandsaw SPT's does raise the final price.

I suppose we can take some pride in the American system, in that it seems to be working to make more goods, in this case power tools, available in a greater selection. A person just starting out to equip a shop has a lot of really nice machines to select from and, as you say, competition has seen to it that prices are relatively affordable.

And I admit that living where I do, which is pretty far from an urban area that might provide a service center for major tools, Shopsmith's customer service and prompt mail order mean more to me than they might to someone who lives near a large town. The closest cities to where I am are Spokane or Missoula and either way is over 100 miles. That makes mail order an attractive way to shop!

So, I guess that leaves just the question of shop space. And here I see Shopsmith as still the hands down winner. But in our "bigger is better" world, it may not be possible for Shopsmith to convince potential buyers that they will actually be happier in a smaller shop with a SS than they would be in big space filled with less expensive stand alones.

On a side note- you are correct in saying that the tilting table is a compromise. But, you know, other than the difficulty of rigging an outfeed table for cuts when the table is tilted (I use a roller stand) and the fairly unusual situation of having to put a compound miter on a stick more than 4 feet long, I have never found the tilting table to be a problem. Before the 1940's, as far as I am aware, all table saws were tilting table saws.

Ed
Idaho Panhandle
MkV 500/505 etc

[dusty]

edflorence;

Be just a bit patient. A tilting outfeed table will be posted here very shortly. I completed assembly of my prototype yesterday.

Pictures soon.

[alancooke]

Economics force families to consider two incomes and smaller families in line with income budgets. Interest in woodworking might be still comparable to what we knew but the surplus available to spend on tools and machinery is meager compared to what was available decades ago. Limited resources mean stretching cash as much as possible (even if it means sacrificing quality) to be able to accomplish "something" today while they can. Most consider the purchase of a machine only as a means to save money and then list the remainders on Craig's List.

Younger generations already operate with enormous credit card debts which might take some their whole life to pay back. To place an additional 3000 balance on a credit card might be suicidal for some.

Those that can afford the luxury we have are mostly retired (with a canceled mortgage and a home mostly furnished) and empty nester's who now have some sort of surplus to play with.

I hear this type of statement a lot, but to be honest, most young people today have grown up in an 'Instant Gratification America' and will usually find a way to buy what they REALLY WANT. If you doubt it, go to the nearest big lake and see how many retired people are riding around on 5K jet skis. We have a Honda plant here in Florence and they produce 1100 ATV's PER DAY!!!!!!! that have a starting retail somewhere around 4K. And that's just one maker! How about the price of high end bicycles? Shotguns for sporting clays?, etc. etc.

I don't remember who said/wrote it, but the quote goes like this: "create a product that satifies a need and you'll make a living; create a product that satisfies a want, and you'll make a fortune"

The money is out there, SS has to create the desire and that has to begin with exposure. I bought my SS at a large home show in Charlotte, NC but if I had not attended that show, I would still be clueless about SS.

I have been a woodworking hobbyist for nearly 20 years and can't recall ever seeing or hearing anything about SS until I purchased one.

I realize that the unique nature of SS poses some marketing challenges, but the definition of insanity is 'doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results'. I agree that the internet is one of the greatest new marketing channels, but how will 'SS challenged' potential buyers know it's on the internet?

This is a great forum.

Alan

[Ed in Tampa]

[quote="dusty"]edflorence]


Dusty
I think is just one example of SS not understanding the market. Nothing frosts me more than having to adjust my outfeed table every time I raise or lower my blade height, tilt my table or move the carriage to better if for the wood or something. I would buy a outfeed table that adjusted with my table in a heart beat but they don't offer one.

If I was running Shopsmith I would have one of these on the market tomorrow at a price no SS owner could refuse and I offer one or two accessories that carried a good profit margin and I bet I could recoup my development costs in a short period of time.


As Alan said, "The money is out there, SS has to create the desire and that has to begin with exposure. I bought my SS at a large home show in Charlotte, NC but if I had not attended that show, I would still be clueless about SS."

The mney is there however Shopsmith appeals to a particular user group, you have to understand that group and cater to that group. You will never convince a dye in the wool cabinet saw owner to give up his saw to buy a SS. However there are other people that will buy a SS. Those SS buyers also want the accessories to go with the machine at prices they can afford and that make economic sense to them.
Ed

[edflorence]

I agree completely...I would very likely be one of the first purchasers of a "self adjusting" outfeed system if it would adapt to my 500.

Until then I will wait patiently for Dusty's pix!

Ed
Idaho Panhandle
MkV 500/505 etc

[jerryjankura]

I think is just one example of SS not understanding the market. Nothing frosts me more than having to adjust my outfeed table every time I raise or lower my blade height, tilt my table or move the carriage to better if for the wood or something. I would buy a outfeed table that adjusted with my table in a heart beat but they don't offer one.

If I was running Shopsmith I would have one of these on the market tomorrow at a price no SS owner could refuse and I offer one or two accessories that carried a good profit margin and I bet I could recoup my development costs in a short period of time.

I'll buy into that thought. I bought the "power lift" about a week after they had it on the market. We even drove down to Dayton to pick it up.

Question - besides the "self adjusting" outfeed table, what other attachments do you think would become "must haves"?

-- Jerry J.