As long as we are participating in this forum (marketing survey) I might as well add two of the things I really don't (probably never will) understand.
The first is: "Why didn't Tarzan have a beard?"
The second is: Why doesn't Shopsmith have color adds in all major woodworking magazines?
According to posts in this forum, advertisers have benefits in several ways other than the first exposure because of the add. They get in on tool tests, get tool reviews, get pictures of editors using those tools to make projects. Simply I fail to understand how a potential buyer, or for that matter a purchaser of a used machine can know of the existence of Shopsmith and their services without advertising. Store and Fair demos evidently were not working well enough. No wonder! They only reached but a small fraction of the folks that magazine adds can!
It may be that Edward Rice Burrows never realized that men grow long facial hair if they never shave it.
It may be that Shopsmith has never realized or has completely disregarded the value of tens of thousands of men and women being aware of their product.
There is a mode in our brains (we all have it) called paradigms. You know; All Japanese stuff is junk; The best watches are made in Switzerland; One long held by the Ford Auto Company - People will buy this because they always have; A certain brand (because of it's name) is better.
All of the above are dead wrong! Maybe they used to be true, but no longer! After WWII all the Japanese stuff coming to the U.S. was tinny and not built to last. However what about now, with Japanese cars the largest sellers in the world! What about watches made in Japan? Some of the most accurate time pieces come from there. Paradigms have held researchers from finding a true result of their experiment, simply because of a paradigm. They just "Knew" what the expected results should be and what shouldn't be. The experimenters looked straight at the result and couldn't see it.
Yes, the same paradigms can exist within an entire organization. Ford, Chrysler, General Motors......etc.
How many paradigms does Shopsmith have about advertising?
How can we help Shopsmith?
Moderator: admin
I won't deny we have our paradigms here at Shopsmith, Chuck, but I also must affirm the existence of reasonably intelligent marketing analysis. Please read my comment in https://forum.shopsmith.com/viewtopic.php?t=524. We have tried magazine ads; they don't work for the reasons I mention:
"...The reason is that our tools have to be demonstrated for the viewer to understand its uses. You can show a picture of router or a table saw and most woodworkers, even newbies, understand what it does. You don't have to educate the reader; you can jump right the benefits of the pictured machine, followed by the offer. The Shopsmith Mark V is such a unique approach to woodworking that it's uses are not immediately apparent. You have to demonstrate all five modes -- sawing, sanding, drilling, boring, turning -- just so the reader will begin to understand how to use it. This takes at least a page, and you haven't even gotten to the benefits, let alone the offer."
Actually, the Shopsmith brand is reasonably well-known in the woodworking world. And surprisingly, sales are brisk -- about 12,000 machines sell each year. The trouble is, most of these are used machines, some of them more than 50 years old. The community of woodworkers is shrinking for several reasons, not the least of which is the dearth of shop classes nationwide. Consequently, there is a glut of used woodworking machines, including Shopsmith Mark Vs. And since we manufacture the dang thing to last forever and have made it possible for you to upgrade even the oldest Mark Vs to a 520, what's the point of buying new? Our strongest competition is ourselves!
We are searching for a way out of this dilemna, and we are experimenting with several options, but rest assured the answer is not magazine advertisements.
With all good wishes,
"...The reason is that our tools have to be demonstrated for the viewer to understand its uses. You can show a picture of router or a table saw and most woodworkers, even newbies, understand what it does. You don't have to educate the reader; you can jump right the benefits of the pictured machine, followed by the offer. The Shopsmith Mark V is such a unique approach to woodworking that it's uses are not immediately apparent. You have to demonstrate all five modes -- sawing, sanding, drilling, boring, turning -- just so the reader will begin to understand how to use it. This takes at least a page, and you haven't even gotten to the benefits, let alone the offer."
Actually, the Shopsmith brand is reasonably well-known in the woodworking world. And surprisingly, sales are brisk -- about 12,000 machines sell each year. The trouble is, most of these are used machines, some of them more than 50 years old. The community of woodworkers is shrinking for several reasons, not the least of which is the dearth of shop classes nationwide. Consequently, there is a glut of used woodworking machines, including Shopsmith Mark Vs. And since we manufacture the dang thing to last forever and have made it possible for you to upgrade even the oldest Mark Vs to a 520, what's the point of buying new? Our strongest competition is ourselves!
We are searching for a way out of this dilemna, and we are experimenting with several options, but rest assured the answer is not magazine advertisements.
With all good wishes,
Nick Engler
http://www.workshopcompanion.com
http://www.workshopcompanion.com
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Ed in Tampa
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 5834
- Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:45 am
- Location: North Tampa Bay area Florida
Jerryjerryjankura wrote: Question - besides the "self adjusting" outfeed table, what other attachments do you think would become "must haves"?
-- Jerry J.
Power on and off switch that is relocatable and can be kneed in an emergency.
I would like a slidding sled that had kerf for the blade running through it so there was sled on both sides of the blade. One that was built with safety and exacting accuracy. One that used the latest t fence technology to allow hold downs, stop blocks and other jigs to be secured to it. Perhaps the kerf area could be replaceable.
I would love to see a speed increaser that produced shaper speeds and had some way to reverse it.
I would be interested in a sharpening station with support arm like Jet and Tormek uses. Mounted on the SS with a speed reducer.
I would be very interested in a mortise/tendoning table that had xy and z axis movement similar to one David Marks uses on his show. The overhead Pin router is already there, if the support that holds the router would tilt to the horizontal plane.
I would be super interested in a DC motor Shopsmith.
Most of all I would like to see Shopsmith start pricing their Special Purpose Tools with the consideration that a stand and motor is not included.
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chiroindixon
- Gold Member
- Posts: 243
- Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:42 pm
- Location: QCA Iowa
Power on and off switch that is relocatable and can be kneed in an emergency. Agreed. See the solution with pictures I posted on the first page of "StopSaw System" or the other forum, SSUG.org, under photos for "Shopsmith Safety Switch". Very easy and effective solution....I love it.
I would like a slidding sled that had kerf for the blade running through it so there was sled on both sides of the blade.etc,etc Watch WOODWORKS with David Marks. Very easy to build with all those features. Be sure to use/ buy the miter bars from SS. Better and safer than making your own.
I would love to see a speed increaser that produced shaper speeds and had some way to reverse it. As a TA instructor once said, the increaser is a waste of time/money. These jobs are better left for a router with router table.
I would be super interested in a DC motor Shopsmith. Because?? Now they already do make a 220v version. Any advantage here that is overlooked?
Most of all I would like to see Shopsmith start pricing their Special Purpose Tools with the consideration that a stand and motor is not included. Ed, you lost me here. If you are inferring that once you add the extras to make that special tool work, you're right. Very pricey.....And some are just Rube Goldbergs', like the oscillating drum sander. I bought a new table top model with all the attachments for a lot less.
Just figured I'd chime in. Been quiet for months....
Doc
I would like a slidding sled that had kerf for the blade running through it so there was sled on both sides of the blade.etc,etc Watch WOODWORKS with David Marks. Very easy to build with all those features. Be sure to use/ buy the miter bars from SS. Better and safer than making your own.
I would love to see a speed increaser that produced shaper speeds and had some way to reverse it. As a TA instructor once said, the increaser is a waste of time/money. These jobs are better left for a router with router table.
I would be super interested in a DC motor Shopsmith. Because?? Now they already do make a 220v version. Any advantage here that is overlooked?
Most of all I would like to see Shopsmith start pricing their Special Purpose Tools with the consideration that a stand and motor is not included. Ed, you lost me here. If you are inferring that once you add the extras to make that special tool work, you're right. Very pricey.....And some are just Rube Goldbergs', like the oscillating drum sander. I bought a new table top model with all the attachments for a lot less.
Just figured I'd chime in. Been quiet for months....
Doc
[quote="Nick"]I won't deny we have our paradigms here at Shopsmith, Chuck, but I also must affirm the existence of reasonably intelligent marketing analysis. Please read my comment in https://forum.shopsmith.com/viewtopic.php?t=524. We have tried magazine ads]
Nick, with all due respect, (and that's a lot! Ever since I first read your "Woodworking Wisdom") I can't help but think you have just stated one beautiful example of a Shopsmith's paradigm, in the above quote. Including the URL.
Let's start over and think of a simple one page add. It shows four small pictures of Shopsmith in different modes (sanding, drilling, boring, turning) and one larger photo in the table saw mode (in use!). The wording in the add simply (and tersely as possible) tells what the different modes do. This simple wording will fit under the photos. It's probably a good thing to add the 6 sq ft. thing. The Most important feature of the add directs the reader to the Shopsmith.net site and the Shopsmith.com site.
I like yourself, and all the other users of this forum, believe the Internet may be "the salvation". But how do the unwashed become aware of the Internet at Shopsmith.net? You just can't hang it out there for folks to stumble into!
With Magazine advertisement, Shopsmith can have more than just a jab (boxing terminology) You can give it a one two punch (internet) - and possibly three - if the viewer gets interested enough to buy
Gotta face it! The only way most, if not all of us found out about this forum is through Shopsmith advertising direct to SS owners only. And for me it was via E-mail
We are working (wanting) to find those folks owning used Shopsmiths and don't have any information on assessories or repair parts. You know, "the guy down the block". Also, and maybe more importantly, we are looking for the guy/gal who saw a Shopsmith at a demo years ago.- has lusted for one since and now has the wherewithal to buy. We are also looking for the person that has a contractor table saw, but lacks room to put more machines. We are also looking for the folks that are thinking of getting into wood working and has picked up a "Wood" magazine off the stand because of an interesting cover. We need to hit those folks between the eyes with a knockout add that entices them to get more information about Shopsmith.
Nick, with all due respect, (and that's a lot! Ever since I first read your "Woodworking Wisdom") I can't help but think you have just stated one beautiful example of a Shopsmith's paradigm, in the above quote. Including the URL.
Let's start over and think of a simple one page add. It shows four small pictures of Shopsmith in different modes (sanding, drilling, boring, turning) and one larger photo in the table saw mode (in use!). The wording in the add simply (and tersely as possible) tells what the different modes do. This simple wording will fit under the photos. It's probably a good thing to add the 6 sq ft. thing. The Most important feature of the add directs the reader to the Shopsmith.net site and the Shopsmith.com site.
I like yourself, and all the other users of this forum, believe the Internet may be "the salvation". But how do the unwashed become aware of the Internet at Shopsmith.net? You just can't hang it out there for folks to stumble into!
With Magazine advertisement, Shopsmith can have more than just a jab (boxing terminology) You can give it a one two punch (internet) - and possibly three - if the viewer gets interested enough to buy
Gotta face it! The only way most, if not all of us found out about this forum is through Shopsmith advertising direct to SS owners only. And for me it was via E-mail
We are working (wanting) to find those folks owning used Shopsmiths and don't have any information on assessories or repair parts. You know, "the guy down the block". Also, and maybe more importantly, we are looking for the guy/gal who saw a Shopsmith at a demo years ago.- has lusted for one since and now has the wherewithal to buy. We are also looking for the person that has a contractor table saw, but lacks room to put more machines. We are also looking for the folks that are thinking of getting into wood working and has picked up a "Wood" magazine off the stand because of an interesting cover. We need to hit those folks between the eyes with a knockout add that entices them to get more information about Shopsmith.
Octogenarian's have an earned right to be a curmudgeon.
Chuck in Lancaster, CA
Chuck in Lancaster, CA
Chuck, and I say this with my tongue firmly in my cheek, did you ever think that maybe your paradigm is a misconception about the effectiveness of magazine ads?
With all good wishes,
With all good wishes,
Nick Engler
http://www.workshopcompanion.com
http://www.workshopcompanion.com
-
Ed in Tampa
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 5834
- Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:45 am
- Location: North Tampa Bay area Florida
Power on and off switch that is relocatable and can be kneed in an emergency. Agreed. See the solution with pictures I posted on the first page of "StopSaw System" or the other forum, SSUG.org, under photos for "Shopsmith Safety Switch". Very easy and effective solution....I love it.
I think the work you did on your emergency power off switch is excellent. But I would rather have something mounted to the table with a big enough paddle that I could hit/lean against it and turn the unit off.
I would like a slidding sled that had kerf for the blade running through it so there was sled on both sides of the blade.etc,etc Watch WOODWORKS with David Marks. Very easy to build with all those features. Be sure to use/ buy the miter bars from SS. Better and safer than making your own.
I agree I can build my own. But I would love to see one that that has a lexan blade guard, replaceable blade kerf, had some aluminum or steel to conteract warping and bending, was deadly accurate. Something that would be hard for most of us to build.
I would love to see a speed increaser that produced shaper speeds and had some way to reverse it. As a TA instructor once said, the increaser is a waste of time/money. These jobs are better left for a router with router table.
Agreed at the current speed the increaser is a waste. However increase the speed and put a gear train it there to allow reversing and the story becomes completely different
I would be super interested in a DC motor Shopsmith. Because?? Now they already do make a 220v version. Any advantage here that is overlooked?
DC motor are easily speed regulated, any speed zero to top speed, thus eliminating the need for all the speed mechanism. DC motors are easily reversable advantage is obvious. DC motors have high starting torque again the benefit is obvious. DC motor is lighter and with the elimination of the most of the mechanics the headstock would be greatly reduced in weight. Lastly new technology makes the DC motor concept nearly bullet proof, no more power sheaves to clean and lube, no poly belt to replace, no mechanical speed adjuster to replace missing teeth and broken pork chops, hard to turn dials and the temptation to turn the adjuster with the power off.
Most of all I would like to see Shopsmith start pricing their Special Purpose Tools with the consideration that a stand and motor is not included. Ed, you lost me here. If you are inferring that once you add the extras to make that special tool work, you're right. Very pricey.....And some are just Rube Goldbergs', like the oscillating drum sander. I bought a new table top model with all the attachments for a lot less.
By special purpose tools I mean things like the Bandsaw, jointer, planner, belt sander etc. All of these are priced almost identical to other manufactures stand alone units. However the SS doesn't have the expense of a motor, pulley's belts, and stands. To me the SS price to compete must be priced less. Take the Bandsaw for example and compare it to a Delta Bandsaw. The SS bandsaw without motor without a stand, without any belts or pulleys cost the same price as the Delta $499. The Delta is a 14 inch saw, has it's own motor pulleys and belts, has a cast iron table, a blade tensioner release, the capability of adding a riser block to increase throat height by 6 additional inches to total a little over 12. The Dlta comes with a built in dust port. All things the SS either charges extra for or simply can't be done.
Just figured I'd chime in. Been quiet for months....
I'm glad you chimed in! You asked good questions and provided me a opportunity to explain my statements.
Going back to the bandsaw. When I bought my SS bandsaw it cost about $350 and the cheapest Delta you could buy was about $700. With the exception of the motor and stand the two were similar although the Delta always did carry a size advantage. However SS even addressed that by providing slanted blade blocks that would allow you to crosscut a infinite length board provided with wasn't so wide to hit the riser. However over the years SS's bandsaw price has increased with normal inflation while Delta added features and took cost saving measures to actually bring it's price down. Today the two cost the same amount but in my book the Delta has it all over the SS in features and capacity. Today there are some "no name" bandsaws, which were reverse engineered off the Delta, that can be bought for a lot less than the SS.
Yes I know SS is premere equip and I appreciate that but it should also consider the competition. If SS can't manufacture a bandsaw without the motor, and stand, one that has less capacity than the competition for less than the competition SS then needs to take a different track.
How about beefing it up and make it the ultimate bandsaw. By beefing it up put in super heavy duty bearings, roller bearing blade guides, top flight wheels with perfected neoprene tires, perfectly balanced, easy open cover, and all the present accessories included. SS may be forced to charge even more than the current for this saw but at least it wouldn't take the backseat to the competition on features, quality and capabilities. In other words either cut costs so you are viable competition or become the Rolls Royce. SS can't continue to offer less and charge the same or more in some cases.
Just my opinions
Ed
I think the work you did on your emergency power off switch is excellent. But I would rather have something mounted to the table with a big enough paddle that I could hit/lean against it and turn the unit off.
I would like a slidding sled that had kerf for the blade running through it so there was sled on both sides of the blade.etc,etc Watch WOODWORKS with David Marks. Very easy to build with all those features. Be sure to use/ buy the miter bars from SS. Better and safer than making your own.
I agree I can build my own. But I would love to see one that that has a lexan blade guard, replaceable blade kerf, had some aluminum or steel to conteract warping and bending, was deadly accurate. Something that would be hard for most of us to build.
I would love to see a speed increaser that produced shaper speeds and had some way to reverse it. As a TA instructor once said, the increaser is a waste of time/money. These jobs are better left for a router with router table.
Agreed at the current speed the increaser is a waste. However increase the speed and put a gear train it there to allow reversing and the story becomes completely different
I would be super interested in a DC motor Shopsmith. Because?? Now they already do make a 220v version. Any advantage here that is overlooked?
DC motor are easily speed regulated, any speed zero to top speed, thus eliminating the need for all the speed mechanism. DC motors are easily reversable advantage is obvious. DC motors have high starting torque again the benefit is obvious. DC motor is lighter and with the elimination of the most of the mechanics the headstock would be greatly reduced in weight. Lastly new technology makes the DC motor concept nearly bullet proof, no more power sheaves to clean and lube, no poly belt to replace, no mechanical speed adjuster to replace missing teeth and broken pork chops, hard to turn dials and the temptation to turn the adjuster with the power off.
Most of all I would like to see Shopsmith start pricing their Special Purpose Tools with the consideration that a stand and motor is not included. Ed, you lost me here. If you are inferring that once you add the extras to make that special tool work, you're right. Very pricey.....And some are just Rube Goldbergs', like the oscillating drum sander. I bought a new table top model with all the attachments for a lot less.
By special purpose tools I mean things like the Bandsaw, jointer, planner, belt sander etc. All of these are priced almost identical to other manufactures stand alone units. However the SS doesn't have the expense of a motor, pulley's belts, and stands. To me the SS price to compete must be priced less. Take the Bandsaw for example and compare it to a Delta Bandsaw. The SS bandsaw without motor without a stand, without any belts or pulleys cost the same price as the Delta $499. The Delta is a 14 inch saw, has it's own motor pulleys and belts, has a cast iron table, a blade tensioner release, the capability of adding a riser block to increase throat height by 6 additional inches to total a little over 12. The Dlta comes with a built in dust port. All things the SS either charges extra for or simply can't be done.
Just figured I'd chime in. Been quiet for months....
I'm glad you chimed in! You asked good questions and provided me a opportunity to explain my statements.
Going back to the bandsaw. When I bought my SS bandsaw it cost about $350 and the cheapest Delta you could buy was about $700. With the exception of the motor and stand the two were similar although the Delta always did carry a size advantage. However SS even addressed that by providing slanted blade blocks that would allow you to crosscut a infinite length board provided with wasn't so wide to hit the riser. However over the years SS's bandsaw price has increased with normal inflation while Delta added features and took cost saving measures to actually bring it's price down. Today the two cost the same amount but in my book the Delta has it all over the SS in features and capacity. Today there are some "no name" bandsaws, which were reverse engineered off the Delta, that can be bought for a lot less than the SS.
Yes I know SS is premere equip and I appreciate that but it should also consider the competition. If SS can't manufacture a bandsaw without the motor, and stand, one that has less capacity than the competition for less than the competition SS then needs to take a different track.
How about beefing it up and make it the ultimate bandsaw. By beefing it up put in super heavy duty bearings, roller bearing blade guides, top flight wheels with perfected neoprene tires, perfectly balanced, easy open cover, and all the present accessories included. SS may be forced to charge even more than the current for this saw but at least it wouldn't take the backseat to the competition on features, quality and capabilities. In other words either cut costs so you are viable competition or become the Rolls Royce. SS can't continue to offer less and charge the same or more in some cases.
Just my opinions
Ed
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chiroindixon
- Gold Member
- Posts: 243
- Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:42 pm
- Location: QCA Iowa
Ed,
Good to be back. After watching the antics with Putttn, I gave up for awhile. I do however read this forum about everyday.
First, that safety switch works far better than you think. Using your shin is much faster, and allows you to keep both hands on your work. ( or up safely away as need be) Plus, where is the table when you have your machine in "lathe" mode? Make one of these....you'll love it. ( Idea stolen from David Marks when he explained why this solution was better than a "paddle".) I had been using a dust collector floor switch previously, and I knew that was a bad idea.....
Sleds...I've made three with most of the features you want. Send me again your email address and I'll do my best to get the pictures to you. You can then chose to post them here if you like. Yes, they were a challenge to make, but a great learning experience. Another one of those missions you accept when you take up woodworking, the making of jigs and fixtures. Oh, and half the shop itself. A friend complemented me recently. Wasn't just the tool collection but the fact I did use the SS to build the wood racks, miter stand, extension tables, etc.
My professional woodworker friends are adamant about any "shaper" be of 3HP or better. My one friend just bought the most awesome specialized shaper to do solid wooden doors. What a horse! 5 to be exact. Trying to get a SS to do this is stretching too far.
Bandsaw price...I agree. Looked like Supershop sold the identical model for about half the price.
Doc
Good to be back. After watching the antics with Putttn, I gave up for awhile. I do however read this forum about everyday.
First, that safety switch works far better than you think. Using your shin is much faster, and allows you to keep both hands on your work. ( or up safely away as need be) Plus, where is the table when you have your machine in "lathe" mode? Make one of these....you'll love it. ( Idea stolen from David Marks when he explained why this solution was better than a "paddle".) I had been using a dust collector floor switch previously, and I knew that was a bad idea.....
Sleds...I've made three with most of the features you want. Send me again your email address and I'll do my best to get the pictures to you. You can then chose to post them here if you like. Yes, they were a challenge to make, but a great learning experience. Another one of those missions you accept when you take up woodworking, the making of jigs and fixtures. Oh, and half the shop itself. A friend complemented me recently. Wasn't just the tool collection but the fact I did use the SS to build the wood racks, miter stand, extension tables, etc.
My professional woodworker friends are adamant about any "shaper" be of 3HP or better. My one friend just bought the most awesome specialized shaper to do solid wooden doors. What a horse! 5 to be exact. Trying to get a SS to do this is stretching too far.
Bandsaw price...I agree. Looked like Supershop sold the identical model for about half the price.
Doc
Yes, of course I have!Nick wrote:Chuck, and I say this with my tongue firmly in my cheek, did you ever think that maybe your paradigm is a misconception about the effectiveness of magazine ads?
With all good wishes,
Just ask the folks at headquarters: How much would they pay out in order to sell 66,000 Mark Vs next year instead of 22,000 (most of them used)? No, I'm not going to order this many, but you can sell a lot more than 22,000 with your new, coming, Shopsmith.net. But there has to be a vehicle to lead folks to the web site. Magazine adds seem to work for other woodworking machine manufacturers. e.g. "find it at Lowe's" placed in the add.
Octogenarian's have an earned right to be a curmudgeon.
Chuck in Lancaster, CA
Chuck in Lancaster, CA
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jerryjankura
- Silver Member
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:06 am
I would love to see a speed increaser that produced shaper speeds and had some way to reverse it. As a TA instructor once said, the increaser is a waste of time/money. These jobs are better left for a router with router table.
Agreed at the current speed the increaser is a waste. However increase the speed and put a gear train it there to allow reversing and the story becomes completely different
You wouldn't even have to add a gear train. If I recall correctly, the speed increaser is basically two wheels. One is connected to the headstock spindle and the other is turned 90 degrees and connected to the high speed spindle. All you have to do to reverse the new spindle is move the wheel down to the opposite side of the center of the wheel connected to the headstock spindle and you've reversed the high speed spindle.
Agreed at the current speed the increaser is a waste. However increase the speed and put a gear train it there to allow reversing and the story becomes completely different
You wouldn't even have to add a gear train. If I recall correctly, the speed increaser is basically two wheels. One is connected to the headstock spindle and the other is turned 90 degrees and connected to the high speed spindle. All you have to do to reverse the new spindle is move the wheel down to the opposite side of the center of the wheel connected to the headstock spindle and you've reversed the high speed spindle.