Project Help

heathicus · Post by **heathicus** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:33 pm

I finally got to spend a good part of the day in my shop working on my dad's Christmas present (originally discussed here: http://shopsmith.net/forums/showthread.htm?t=4600). I got the basic frame all cut out and dry fit together. I spent a lot of time making a lot of of test cuts, figuring out procedures, trying to reduce tear out, working with hand chisels, etc. The joints are all nice and tight and I have the rabbet cut for the back. I'm now on hold until I get some Plexiglas for the front. But I do have a question I hoped I could get some help with.

My original plans called for square plugs on the joinery in true Greene & Greene style. I decided that would be too difficult so I revised it to a wooden dowel. As I was working and pondering things I thought either an aluminum or brass rod would look a lot nicer. But I'm not sure how to proceed.

Having very basic tools, how would I get the rod flush with the wood? Can it be sanded flush? What kind of glue should I use to secure it? Are there other factors I should be aware of like wood movement for instance!

charlese · Post by **charlese** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:56 pm

heathicus wrote:...
My original plans called for square plugs on the joinery in true Greene & Greene style. I decided that would be too difficult so I revised it to a wooden dowel. As I was working and pondering things I thought either an aluminum or brass rod would look a lot nicer. But I'm not sure how to proceed.

Having very basic tools, how would I get the rod flush with the wood? Can it be sanded flush? What kind of glue should I use to secure it? Are there other factors I should be aware of like wood movement for instance!

How about going back to the wood dowel thought. You could make something like the pictured peg on the lathe. You could size the peg on the lathe to fit a dowel hole and the head diameter to your taste. Then it would be easy to square up the big end (head) with a sander. Also a sander could be used to sand the bevels on Greene & Greene plug heads.

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mickyd · Post by **mickyd** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:10 pm

One newbie to another.....what if you used screws to join and then just used a brass plug to cover the screw head? You could sand and polish the brass plug to a mirror finish prior to install then tap it in until it's flush. Naturally, you'd have to insert it only after the wood had been finish sanded so that you don't mess up the mirror finish.

If your fit is close enough, would probably don't even need adhesive. If you did need adhesive, I would think any general purpose glue / epoxy that bonds both wood and metal would work.

heathicus · Post by **heathicus** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:34 pm

Charlese, that's a great idea for making the square plugs. I'll have to keep that in mind. But I have never ever turned before, my lathe chisels aren't sharp, and... I just don't think I'll have be "lathe ready" in time to do that for this project. And I still don't have any pads for the disc sander (I forwarded the recent sale email to "Santa"), so all I have is a 5" random orbit and a 1/2 sheet sander.

Mike, I haven't decided if I'm going to screw the joints together or just use glue. There is a lot of contact area, and with the back in place, I feel it will hold together quite well. And I'm afraid of splitting the wood if I use screws, even pre-drilling. Whether I use a dowel or a bass/aluminum rod, it will be decorative, not functional.

So if I use brass or aluminum rods, it should be cut, sanded, and polished, then tapped in to place flush? Would it not be possible to start with the rod slightly proud and sand it down flush? Should I apply the finish to the wood before adding the rod?

bluekayak · Post by **bluekayak** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:14 am

I wonder how the brass or aluminum would age. In a few years those metal plugs could tarnish, and that would detract from the display. Just my 2 cents.

I just started turning this week. It is something that has always intimidated me. Actually, it is not that difficult. However, I was lucky enough to get chisels with both my used Greenie and used Gray. The Gray's chisels were Shopsmith and they had never been used. I'd encourage you to try and sharpen your chisels and give turning a try for a few hours. You might be surprised.

In the Shopsmith book, "Power Tool Woodworking for Everyone" on page 190 there is a picture of using a dowel steady rest that would work good for those pegs. I could try drawing it if you are interested and do not have the book. It is quite simple. The steady rest is just a wood block that you clamp to your saw table. The wood block has several different size holes (suitable for different sized dowels) drilled in it. Then there is a sturdy bolt for the tool rest. You put a dowel through the hole and attach the dowel to the drill chuck. The end of the dowel you are working on is not attached to anything. You make your turning, cut it off, and advance the quill to make the next turning. It is described as a good way to make small items for toys and models.

Edit added: The book says to use paste wax on the dowels so the do not bind in the holes.

Jerry Floren
St. Peter, MN

a1gutterman · Post by **a1gutterman** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:21 am

heathicus wrote:...So if I use brass or aluminum rods, it should be cut, sanded, and polished, then tapped in to place flush? Would it not be possible to start with the rod slightly proud and sand it down flush? Should I apply the finish to the wood before adding the rod?

Yes, you can sand the proud rod ends flush with the wood. In doing so, you must be careful to knot continue to remove wood material as you are trying to flush the rods. The softer wood will sand down faster then the harder metal. You can use your disk sander for this and then hand sand to get rid of the sanding marks. IMHO, a clear finish that is applied over the wood and rods will work well if the rods are flush with the wood.

cocacola1012 · Post by **cocacola1012** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:14 am

charlese wrote:How about going back to the wood dowel thought. You could make something like the pictured peg on the lathe. You could size the peg on the lathe to fit a dowel hole and the head diameter to your taste. Then it would be easy to square up the big end (head) with a sander. Also a sander could be used to sand the bevels on Greene & Greene plug heads.

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Try this 3 step process: 1. use a plug cutter or holesaw to cut the big round plug out of scrap wood (it could be any diameter you choose, just make it match the holes in the frame). 2. Drill a hole in the plug (you could even drill this hole before cutting the plug). 3. Insert a dowel into the drilled hole in step 2.

mickyd · Post by **mickyd** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:19 am

heathicus wrote:Charlese, that's a great idea .......

So if I use brass or aluminum rods, it should be cut, sanded, and polished, then tapped in to place flush? Would it not be possible to start with the rod slightly proud and sand it down flush? Should I apply the finish to the wood before adding the rod?

I think you'll benefit by prototyping the best method for insertion. My guess is you should finish both your wood and dowel end independently then tap in flush.

I have another thought. What if you intentionally leave the brightly polished rounded edged metal dowel proud ~1/8"?

mickyd · Post by **mickyd** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:34 am

Prior to this thread, I'd never heard of Greene and Greene joinery. Googled it and found a video of interest. Heath....I know your a "Wood Whisperer" and you've probably seen this one but thought others may benefit. It's a 45 minute long video. Observe his good shop safety techniques.

http://thewoodwhisperer.com/demo-night-72308-greene-greene-style-joint/

As I wrote this post, I also found this great pdf showing Greene and Greene joinery.

http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/editorsblog/content/binary/0810GnGSlides.pdf

Now I'm convinced you need to keep the dowels proud to be consistent with this style??? Also, go with square plugs, brass.

heathicus · Post by **heathicus** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:19 pm

I've watched that Wood Whisperer video a few times.

I also refer to Darrell Peart's web site frequently too. But I've never seen that PDF document, so thanks for linking to that!

There are examples of the Greene brothers using round instead of square plugs (page 10 of that PDF document includes one). The thing I didn't like about using a dowel is that the surface of the plug is end grain instead of face grain. And I don't have a plug cutter. Leaving an aluminum or brass rod and leaving it proud is definitely worth considering. But bluekayak brings up a good question about how the metal would age. Would it tarnish (relatively) quickly? What could be done to prevent that?