I'm about ready to give up!!

dasgud · Post by **dasgud** » Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:34 pm

I'd really like to chime in with encouragement too. Many, if not all, woodworkers have experienced the frustrations of not being able to "get it" what ever "it" is. Having a mentor to show how they succeed is the best way to figure out where the problem is and how you can fix it. Then when you turn a beauty... well the person that receives it will be that much luckier.
So, when you can get to a wood turning class I would really enjoy watching your eyes when you have that "Oh!" moment

. A class would be a good place to ask about sharpening guides and techniques.
(p.s. I'm not much of a turner. I just do pens for now when I feel like it.)

cv3 · Post by **cv3** » Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:39 pm

I can only eco what has been said. I am fairly new at turning. Got a lot of help from the woodcraft store before it closed here. And have gone to the local turners club too. I know it has been said but sharp tools are very important.

basaltboy · Post by **basaltboy** » Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:36 pm

Thanks again to all of you-
As for details, I was using a PSI Utility Grip with the screw center to rough out a pre-rounded (bandsawn) piece of green pear wood 6" in diameter. Part of the problem is that with the 5/8" to 1-8 adapter plus the PSI chuck there is a considerable amount of distance from the Mark V 5/8 shaft and the work piece, something like 6". This gives a lot of side leverage. When the jam occurred I think this what bent the quill shaft. Had I been using a SS face plate I am sure there would not have been enough leverage involved to bend the shaft. The run out was around .020 and I managed to get it back to .0015. I drilled the end of a piece of 1/2" pipe to 5/8" and using it for leverage carefully "bent" the shaft back using a dial indicator and working slowly. No heat, no pounding. I am going to buy or make an adapter that is 1-8 thread on the OD and 5/8: smooth on the ID, then drill and tap the PSI chuck hub to take a set screw. Hopefully I should be able to get the distance from the headstock to the workpiece shortened so this isn't an issue. I can't imagine that I won't have another gouge incident. Does anyone make a 4- jaw bowl chuck for SS that is shorter coupled than the combo I am using??
thanks
--pat

shipwright · Post by **shipwright** » Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:42 pm

If you are trying to turn a bowl you likely have the grain oriented at 90 deg to the way tubes as in not like a spindle, parallel to the way tubes, yes? If you do and you are trying to "cut" as opposed to "scraping" you will continue to get violent catches as you are orienting the chisel straight into the grain twice every revolution. If this sounds like your problem, try using a scraping tool and keep the handle a little higher than the scraping edge. The difference should be dramatic.

This is "Scraping"

[ATTACH]10619[/ATTACH]

This is "Cutting"

[ATTACH]10620[/ATTACH]

My apologies. These photos are on my Delta lathe but the theory is the same of course.

Paul M

basaltboy · Post by **basaltboy** » Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:49 pm

Thanks Paul
I think this right. I sounds like the cutting edge of the tool should be a bit below the center line if I understand and that's not what I was doing. The tool in the lower photo looks like a bowl gouge but I can't identify the upper one. Could offer a bit more on the diff between a cutting tool and a scraping tool?
Thank you for your help
--pat

beeg · Post by **beeg** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 12:19 am

In the first pic, it looks like a round nose scraper. In the second pic, it looks like a spindle gouge. Remember the "ABC's" of turning. Anchor your tool on the tool rest, ride the Bevel on the work and then Cut.

iclark · Post by **iclark** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 12:55 am

if you are cutting, then the cutting edge needs to be above the center. how much above depends on the tool and the angle of its bevel.

as I was taught, for cutting, start with the handle low and place the steel on the tool rest with the steel extending above/over the wood. using the tool rest as a fulcrum, slowly raise the handle until the steel is brushing the wood. now slide the steel on the tool rest towards the handle while also raising the handle so that the steel continues to just barely touch the wood. when you reach the right spot, you will start cutting with the bevel providing support so that it does not just stab into the wood.

Oneway and Teknatool both make chucks that have 5/8" smooth inserts. SS used to sell chucks from both manufacturers. now, SS sells only the Oneway series. Teknatool makes the Nova series. quite a few people here have the Nova G3 or the Supernova2 chucks and they are frequently on sale at Woodcraft. with either brand of chuck, the tip of the spindle is actually inside the body of the chuck.

while on the subject of chucks, PennStateInd (PSI) sells a pen mandrel with a 5/8" smooth spindle attachment that works with SS. if you get one, you will also want to get a 60* live center.

one of the things I had wrong when I first got a 4 jaw chuck was how far the wood goes into the jaws. with the regular jaws, you do not want the wood to go in until it hits bottom. instead, you want to cut either a mortise or a tenon with a shoulder that the tips of the jaws grip into. the cole jaws are an exception and I expect that the collet jaws may be, also (not sure).

if you use the tailstock (with either a waxed dead center or a live center), then you have forces on both ends of the work trying to keep it spinning on axis. without the tailstock, then any time that you can push the work off center, it will try to act like an unbalanced washer on spin cycle. all of the work to restore it to on-axis has to come from the spindle and inertia is working against you. once you get things roughed out and you want to take finer cuts, then the support from the tailstock is not as necessary.

I have not figured out scraping yet other than to know that you do not want to let anyone stand or work on the other side of the lathe - especially if you use an underhand grip. catches can turn your chisel into a projectile.

shipwright · Post by **shipwright** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 1:53 am

I'll try to explain better. First of all the tool in the top photo is a flat scraper. Here's a better view. I'm working the face here but the rules are the same if I were working the edge.
[ATTACH]10621[/ATTACH]

The tool in the second photo (first post) is a roughing gouge.

The point I am trying to make is that the rules for turning spindles don't apply when you are faceplate turning with the grain of the piece perpendicular to the ways. If you try to "cut" by riding the bevel on the work with the edge shearing cleanly as in the second photo (first post) with a cross grain mounted piece, then twice in each revolution you will be trying to jam the tool straight into end grain. IT WILL CATCH. At the least you will tear out the piece and at worst it can be dangerous. For this type of mounting you should use scrapers (almost square bevel) and scrapers work best with the handle a little above the edge. Not to say you can't scrape with regular gouges in a pinch if you don't have a scraper, the important thing is the angle of attack. When scraping the bevel does not ride.
Try this: Set your piece up on the lathe and orient your chisel to "cut". Turn the piece by hand and observe how the cutting edge will be entering the material as the piece turns. You should see the problem and it should be clear that it can be solved by raising the handle so that the edge isn't aimed into the end grain. This is scraping.
I hope this is clear enough. It's the best I can do.

Paul M

pennview · Post by **pennview** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:23 am

Being a beginner at turning, I'd advise that you scrap the gouges until you gain some experience, especially with regard to turning bowls. It's so easy for the gouge to catch while turning bowls, and consequently damage the bowl or tools, or hurt yourself. Scrapers are the way to go until you find someone to show you the proper technique and to instruct you on which gouges to use on a bowl. You could try searching youtube for some videos on bowl turning and perhaps get the required knowledge there.

Take a look at http://www.tinkerjohn.com , specifically his page on plans where you'll find a link to a youtube video on sharpening lathe tools using his homemade jig. You can get his plans for the jig for $5. He has a number of youtube videos on turning that should prove useful in gaining turning experience.

To begin turning, I'd try making some spindles. You can start with 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 x 8" blanks of clear wood ripped from 2x4s. Here is where you could use the gouges, as well as the scrapers, to gain some experience. But you should be aware that the edges of the various gouges (spindle, bowl, roughing) are all ground differently, and as the name implies, they perform different functions. Using the wrong gouge or using one improperly can lead to serious consequences as you found out. Catches on a spindle are much less severe than when turning a bowl.

Also be wary of the skew chisel. As a scraper, they're easy to use, but for shearing they too are tricky.

For a chuck, take a look at the Nova chucks (or similar style chucks from other makers like OneWay or Penn State Industries). The Nova requires an adapter that allows you to fit the chuck to a variety of lathes, including the shopsmith. If you change lathes, you simply buy another adapter. These chucks mount very close to the spindle nose, so you won't have that long extension you describe for your current chuck.

Don't forget to wear a face shield when turning.

iclark · Post by **iclark** » Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:06 pm

sorry if I am sounding argumentative. I agree that starting out with scrapers is easier for the novice (especially if they have to learn from books and vids). the only turning tools that I have been successful with in my shop (so far) have been the Easy Wood carbide tipped tools. they are essentially scrapers that one sharpens by rotating the tip with a screwdriver. even I can do that.

in the 4 turning classes that I have taken at the local woodcraft, I have had success with scrapers, gouges, and skews. the biggest difference (between class and my shop) was that I had someone mentoring me doing the turning and the sharpening in those classes.

the original poster is currently stuck with using a kludge that cantilevers his workpiece way out from the headstock. he needs to be using tailstock support for safety with that setup - even if he is only cutting on a thin disk like the one that you used as an example. he is working on a bent and hand-straightened spindle and his mounting system is one that is not likely to be fully balanced even at rest.

do I get catches when I am using a gouge? you betcha.
do I get one or 2 per revolution? nope.

did Paul say that we would get one every revolution? no, not explicitly. but if the issue was only the gouge meeting that grain orientation, then we would likely get that catch almost every revolution.

I have been privileged to watch Richard Raffin and David Ellsworth (among the other excellent guest turners but these are the big-name gouge guys) turn at our local club. the only time that either one got a catch with a gouge was when Richard was demonstrating how to cause a catch. was there tear-out when they were roughing? of course there was. but it was tear-out, not catches.

just as with using a block plane, you can go across the grain, but your blade has to be sharp or it will not cut. it will dig in and catch. one of our guest turners demonstrated this concept by actually using a plane as the "chisel" on the lathe. a different guest turner was conveying similar concepts when he used a small ax as a skew chisel.

I am looking forward to taking the fingernail bowl gouge class at the local woodcraft when I can work it into my schedule. in the meantime, I am signed up far an all-day skew class with Allan Lacer a week from tomorrow.

as a novice turner, I cannot emphasize enough how much I agree with what others here have said about the value of finding a local AAW club and of taking classes or finding a mentor.

Ivan