Page 13 of 19
Re: Shorty Drill Press not perpendicular to floor, any ideas?
Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:53 am
by dusty
Majones1 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:00 pm
Oh, and I think that photo ended up sideways too? Making the confusion even more confusing.
No, the previous photo is not sideways.
- Way Tubes at Zero( Horizontal)
- Mike 1.jpeg (258.59 KiB) Viewed 998 times
- Wat Tubes Near Vertical (91.3 degrees)
- Mike 4.jpg (139.92 KiB) Viewed 998 times
Re: Shorty Drill Press not perpendicular to floor, any ideas?
Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:22 am
by DLB
dusty wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:53 am
No, the previous photo is not sideways.
Mike 1.jpegMike 4.jpg
In the second pic the Wixey is attached to what would be the bottom of the way tube on a standard Mark setup in vertical mode. So the angle it is reading is not what we'd call the rotation angle, or how far the ways are rotated. A couple ways to understand that:
A) If you actually rotated the ways with the Wixey here it would read ~180 at the horizontal position because it was zeroed on top of the bench tubes. So the actual angle of bench tube to way tube is 180 - 91.3 = 88.7.
B) If you moved the Wixey to the other side of the tube it would read 88.7 degrees.
C) From the viewer's perspective, the way tubes are rotated CCW (aka anti-CW) but the Wixey is showing CW rotation.
- David
Re: Shorty Drill Press not perpendicular to floor, any ideas?
Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:02 am
by Majones1
dusty wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:53 am
Majones1 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:00 pm
Oh, and I think that photo ended up sideways too? Making the confusion even more confusing.
No, the previous photo is not sideways.
Mike 1.jpegMike 4.jpg
If you go back to page 4 in this discussion you will see Mike’s original set of photos you re-posted above, but his second photo was posted sideways. When I made my comment above I thought my post included the two original photos to demonstrate what I was talking about. I forgot to do a preview to make sure my post was clear.
I’m sorry to have added to the confusion.
Thank you to Dusty for re-posting the two photos, with the second one correctly oriented, to make the point I had tried to make, that the second photo shows the Wixey incorrectly oriented on the way tube.
Re: Shorty Drill Press not perpendicular to floor, any ideas?
Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:29 am
by dusty
Majones1 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:02 am
dusty wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:53 am
Majones1 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:00 pm
Oh, and I think that photo ended up sideways too? Making the confusion even more confusing.
No, the previous photo is not sideways.
Mike 1.jpegMike 4.jpg
If you go back to page 4 in this discussion you will see Mike’s original set of photos you re-posted above, but his second photo was posted sideways. When I made my comment above I thought my post included the two original photos to demonstrate what I was talking about. I forgot to do a preview to make sure my post was clear.
I’m sorry to have added to the confusion.
Thank you to Dusty for re-posting the two photos, with the second one correctly oriented, to make the point I had tried to make, that the second photo shows the Wixey incorrectly oriented on the way tube.
Just to nitpick your comments, there is no right or wrong way to position the Wixey/AngleCube. It will do its thing no matter how it is positioned. The trick is understanding ALL of the symbology on the display. These little idiosyncrasies are what distinguishes one brand from the next. For this discussion the AngleCube is my hands down favorite.
I find it best in situations like this to attach the angle gauge to a "reference surface", to zero it there, and without detaching it put it through the paces. In this case, attach it to the way tube when it is horizontal, zero it and then rotate toward the vertical position. As you approach vertical move in very small increments and simply watch the gauge closely. It is at this point that the AngleCube becomes my favorite (that and it is backlit).
Bottom Line: Doing this it is impossible to get from zero degrees to 91.3 degrees without passing through vertical (90 degrees).
Re: Shorty Drill Press not perpendicular to floor, any ideas?
Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:07 am
by JPG
OK folks. Get ready. Observations on a 1962 Goldie.
Conditions:
Adhered to the criteria Dusty mentioned earlier
1) Reference taken with the in this case the anglecube on
top of the lowered way tube.
2) Raised 'measurement' taken with anglecube at the
same location on the now almost vertical way tube.
Hinge end to the right in pix.
Floor must be level! Zeroing anglecube not necessary.
- reference horizontal top of way tube.jpg (177.01 KiB) Viewed 974 times
And raised to drill press mode and lock screw tightened.
- raised on 'top' of way tube near vertical.jpg (153 KiB) Viewed 974 times
Note the anglecube is still displaying in normal
top up orientation. This indicates the cube has rotated
less than 90 °.
Note also the 'up arrow' on the 'left' side indicating the cube has been rotated
left side up or CW.
Had the way tube been over the center rotated(>90°) the cube
display would have become inverted(upside down) and would be indicating similarly an angle near 90° and the 'up arrow' would have shifted to the
right side up or CCW. Left/right are as defined from the normal reading viewpoint in each case.
Myth (raised tubes are over the center(>90°) BUSTED!
A detailed(no pix) description of anglecube display indications is at
viewtopic.php?p=288252#p288252
That thread also has some pix by Dusty of some of those 'conditions' using a newer model.
Re: Shorty Drill Press not perpendicular to floor, any ideas?
Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:23 am
by algale
I don't see a busted myth. I just see two different machines (Dusty's and JPG's), probably from different errors, with two different readings, neither of which is 90 degrees. Dusty's appears over-rotated and JPG's appears under-rotated.
Whether either condition represents the way these machines were intended to be manufactured or whether the lack of 90 rotation has to do with wear and tear is anybody's guess.
Slight over-rotation at least makes some sense from a safety perspective in my opinion. Under-rotation does not make any sense, in my opinion.
Re: Shorty Drill Press not perpendicular to floor, any ideas?
Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:34 am
by JPG
OK Al. Get down and do some serious detailed thinking. Yes there is much confusion in all these different scenarios.
BUT close examination AND complete understanding of what those angle thingies are 'saying' is crucial.
ALL the pix in this thread when properly interpreted indicate ALL of the machines do NOT overrotate.
As for common sense safety thinking, how about slightly under rotating places the lock screw against the side of the dimple and any lowering force will increase that pressure as long as the screw is below the widest part of the dimple. That implies the lock screw is pushing the casting down towards the base.
It has been demonstrated that any angle greater than about 75° is already 'over the center of gravity' so over 90° is moot!
Re: Shorty Drill Press not perpendicular to floor, any ideas?
Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:34 am
by dusty
JPG wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:07 am
OK folks. Get ready. Observations on a 1962 Goldie.
Conditions:
Adhered to the criteria Dusty mentioned earlier
1) Reference taken with the in this case the anglecube on
top of the lowered way tube.
2) Raised 'measurement' taken with anglecube at the
same location on the now almost vertical way tube.
Hinge end to the right in pix.
Floor must be level! Zeroing anglecube not necessary.
reference horizontal top of way tube.jpg
And raised to drill press mode and lock screw tightened.
raised on 'top' of way tube near vertical.jpg
Note the anglecube is still displaying in normal
top up orientation. This indicates the cube has rotated
less than 90 °.
Note also the 'up arrow' on the 'left' side indicating the cube has been rotated
left side up or CW.
Had the way tube been over the center rotated(>90°) the cube
display would have become inverted(upside down) and would be indicating similarly an angle near 90° and the 'up arrow' would have shifted to the
right side up or CCW. Left/right are as defined from the normal reading viewpoint in each case.
Myth (raised tubes are over the center(>90°) BUSTED!
A detailed(no pix) description of anglecube display indications is at
viewtopic.php?p=288252#p288252
That thread also has some pix by Dusty of some of those 'conditions' using a newer model.
Not Busted! Not Busted at all. In that vertical position place a thinwasher in the "landing zone" and show us what the AngleCube reads. Better than that - put three thin washers there and display the readings, then take one washer out and display the readings, then another - you get the idea.
I'll be waiting. BTW - I did this three or four days ago when Mike and I began our exchange.
Yes, CG is several degrees before you get to vertical. Exactly where it is depends on where the mass (headstock, carriage and table) are located. The closer the mass is to the hinge, the lower the CG.
Re: Shorty Drill Press not perpendicular to floor, any ideas?
Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:37 am
by RFGuy
Re: Shorty Drill Press not perpendicular to floor, any ideas?
Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:01 pm
by dusty
RFGuy wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:37 am
I have not been following this thread that closely because I don't have a shorty and/or dedicated drillpress. IF it helps, I thought I would post pics from my Mark V just to give another datapoint. It is very similar to the results that JPG posted for his. I have a very slight under-rotation at about 89.5°. For my intents and purposes, I am going to call this close enough to 90° and good enough. With this, I am able to get a main table at 0.1°, though my stop for the main table might need a little adjusting. I just assumed that all Mark V's were like mine, so all of this talk about a design intent for a 1° over-rotation is over my head. Why wouldn't Shopsmith design it for 90°, or as close as they can design to it?
P.S. On the center of gravity, when I did this test above, at about 73° is where the center of gravity took over for my Mark V when raising to vertical causing it to tip over on its own above this angle. Of course, I had my main table extended (for drill press mode), so I am sure this angle is dependent on where the headstock is locked down as well as the carriage and main table positions.
Horizontal:
IMG_6959.jpg
Vertical:
IMG_6960_2.jpg
Main Table in drill press mode (vertical mode above):
IMG_6961.jpg
I'll challenge you as well. With your Mark V in the drill press mode, position a flat washer or two in the landing zone and double check your readings as you remove the spacers. This was an interesting exercise for me. I ended up using a half dozen or so washers just to see what would happen.
The Main Table alignment is really part of a totally different discussion because it is adjustable.