Kickback Incident

heathicus · Post by **heathicus** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:02 am

beeg wrote:Heath that's good thats all that happened. Hows the push stick?:)

It seems to have "exploded" with the impact!

johnmccrossen wrote:Dusty, It looks to me like you are cutting the short (unheld) piece to the specific length as determined by your stop block on the fence. It seems like you would want to clamp that piece with the miter guage in the right hand slot and leave the waste end free. If there is not enough room for your miter guage to do this, then you eliminate the rip fence and use a miter guage fence with an attached stop for your repeating cuts or just clamp a stop to your table. Just my thoughts on your question. (I now see you have lots of inputs while I was typing this.)

John McCrossen

Dusty, I'm in no position to say so, but that setup doesn't look the safest to me and I have to agree with John here. Maybe one thing you could do is put an extension on your miter gauge that would be taller than the depth of the blade and extend beyond the blade. As you make the cut, it will push the cut off piece through to safety.

Having that fresh fear in me, I did that very thing today as I was cutting off some small pieces. I made an extension out of 3/4" MDF about 18" long and tall enough to clear the blade. I cut a slot in it so I could slide it left and right depending on which slot I used the miter gauge in. With the gauge in the right slot and the extension slid all the way to the right, the extension extends about 2" past the blade. I also clamped a stop block to the extension for repeating cuts of the same length instead of using the fence (or a block clamped to the fence). I really liked the setup. Scrap was pushed beyond the blade, I had good repeatability, and everything felt safe and solid.

dusty · Post by **dusty** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:18 am

mickyd wrote:dusty - after making the cut, do you (should you) turn the saw off and remove the cut piece prior to making the next cut?

That would undoubtedly be the safest way, micky.

But it is also the most unlikely solution to be used. I submit that we do these things for two reasons. The first being to accurately repeat the cut to produce multiple identical pieces and secondly to save time during this process.

To turn off the saw would waste too much time:rolleyes:.

I wholeheartedly agree that the method I presented is hazardous for all of the reasons stated. I also accept the several suggestions to alleviate the hazard as reasonable methods but maybe not the best.

What say we all put our thoughts into this and come up with a method and maybe a jig that would work for all of us (whatever model TS we have) and share it here. Pictures would be great.

Further discussion about the the pros and cons would also be great.

Let's do this BEFORE one of us gets hurt because I just know that this set up is used often.

dusty · Post by **dusty** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:59 am

OKAY, here is a quick and dirty solution to the problem. I have to hurry with this because I have gifts to finish building and I don't have a lot of time to spend building jigs.

:eek: I looked around the shop for ideas and this popped out.

Use the other miter gauge to hold the stop block. Secure it in the track so that it doesn't move. Adjust the stop block and clamp it to the miter gauge.

[ATTACH]6757[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]6758[/ATTACH]

The saw guard lays on the cut offs until after they clear the blade so they don't have to be removed as they are developed.

We're good to go. Kickback Potential Eliminated! Let's make sawdust and 1 5/8" blocks.

Or are we??? Is there anything wrong with this?

heathicus · Post by **heathicus** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:28 am

Dusty, what would be the potential for the small blocks in your picture to move and somehow wedge between the saw guard and blade and turning into a projectile? I'm wondering now if that's what happened to me the other day. Perhaps the scrap I was trying to clear wedged between the guard and the blade, was thrown back against push stick (which was pushed against my hand) and hit the inside of the guard with so much force it broke it?

I like the idea of using your SS miter gauge, locked in place, as the holder for the stop block. I wish the miter bar on my Craftsman would lock in place like that! However, I think my personal preference would still be to have a long miter extension with a stop block clamped to it. I've always used the "block clamped to the fence" method until yesterday. Yesterday was the first time I used the "block clamped to miter extension" method and I really liked the result. I had much more accurate cuts, less tear out, and more reliable repeatability as I was able to hold the piece in place against the stop block through the entire motion and cut. But keep in mind, this is on my Craftsman and the miter gauge doesn't have the clamp on it like the SS does. I have a feeling that once I get my Mark V operational, that miter handle/clamp is going to spoil me!

robinson46176 · Post by **robinson46176** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:51 am

On my old saw all such operations were done with my big sled and the stop block was attached to the sled. "everything" moved together and the sled stopped its travel just as the cut was finished. It was then safe to just pull the whole assembly back away from the blade and lift out the cut-off or pick up any bits of scrap safely away from the blade. I also built it so that when the rear push bar passed the blade (only half way) the part of the blade on my side of the rear push bar was fully shielded.
Unlike using a miter gauge it is quite safe to hold on to the pieces on both sides of the blade unless they are too short. If they are too short for safe holding a quick clamp holding them to the rear push bar will keep them in place until you pull the sled back.
I simply have not "gotten around to" building a new sled for the TS-3650 yet. Not such a big deal since I have done little real woodworking yet in the new shop. Maybe I should get a "tuit" next week... I'll try to remember to take a picture of my old sled later today.

Ed in Tampa · Post by **Ed in Tampa** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:12 am

If any of you watch David Marks on TV usually when he made a cut like this he used a sled with a stop block. But he also used the eraser on the end of a pencil.

He held the piece he was cutting with his hand and had the pencil eraser pressed down on top of the cut off piece. When he completed the cut he could either hold the cut off firmly in place or flick it away from the blade before he slid the sled back for the next cut. His hands were the pencil length away from the blade and there were no loose pieces of wood that could vibrate into the blade or anywhere else.

Also if you noticed his sled the blade of the saw was buried into the sled. He made the back portion of the fence thick enough that when he completed a cut the blade was covered by back part of the sled. No surprise with a thumb on back side of the sled and blade coming through!

I believe it was Farmer in Post #15 that mentioned making sure the stop block on the fence was thick enough so that if the cut off twisted diagonal it still had clearance between the fence and blade. GOOD CATCH!!! One I don't think I ever thought about before. That may have saved me from future grief! THANKS!

If the Shopsmith has a steel or iron table the ideal solution would be one of those new magnetic devices that lock down on the table.

I often just clamp my stop block onto the table and remove the fence.
I have started using the pencil method I outlined above to enable me to hold onto both pieces of wood.

JPG · Post by **JPG** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:29 pm

Does anybody(else) use a miter gauge stop rod???? It provides a similar function as a sled(only in that everything moves together). Work piece must be held securely with it or the sled.

The stop rod could also be used with Dusty's second miter gauge idea with a rearrangement of the way it is mounted/used.

A problem with the stop rod is it's limited height above the table.

BTW I made mine with a couple of 'improvements'. If anybody cares I can post pix.

heathicus · Post by **heathicus** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:33 pm

Please do, JPG.

dusty · Post by **dusty** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:09 pm

JPG40504 wrote:Does anybody(else) use a miter gauge stop rod???? It provides a similar function as a sled(only in that everything moves together). Work piece must be held securely with it or the sled.

The stop rod could also be used with Dusty's second miter gauge idea with a rearrangement of the way it is mounted/used.

A problem with the stop rod is it's limited height above the table.

BTW I made mine with a couple of 'improvements'. If anybody cares I can post pix.

Carbide blades do a pretty good job on aluminum but that stop rod is not aluminum. I know.

JPG · Post by **JPG** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:28 pm

heathicus wrote:Please do, JPG.

I started a new thread for it - https://forum.shopsmith.com/viewtopic.php?p=52892#post52892

Yes I made mine using steel rods also.

P.S. You DO need to make sure these rods are NEVER positioned so as to be able to be pushed into the sawblade!