Shopsmith purchasing advice

[MartinH]

Hi,

I just registered with the forum and hope this is the correct area to post a question like this.

I recently retired and started doing more woodworking, but I live in the Boston area in a smaller house, so my work area is 9 x 12 feet. In that space I have a small workbench, a workmate, a tool chest, a Ryobi BT 3000 table saw, a benchtop drill press, and scroll saw. As space is tight, I am constantly trying to find more efficient ways to use it, so any suggestions are welcome.

I took shop in highschool, and while I am by no means an accomplished craftsman, I know how to use a bandsaw, table saw, lathe, and drill press. I recently got the itch to try woodturning again, but finding space for even a benchtop tool would be a challenge. Moreover, lifting an eighty pound benchtop lathe onto my workbench is likely to become fatiguing. I know about flip top tables and tool carousels, but that would likely take up too much space.

In my tight work space everything needs to earn its keep. I have known about Shopsmith tools since the 80s, and have always considered getting one, as it fits multiple tools into a single footprint. But the price of a new one has always been beyond my budget. I am also concerned about paying top dollar for a tool, finding that I don't like tool changes, and then selling it at a significant loss. Buying a used Shopsmith seems like a way to reduce financial risk.

But I have a lot of questions I hope someone can help with.

* My ceiling is 7' 6". Is that high enough to bring the Shopsmith into a vertical position?

* I would transport the Shopsmith in a Toyota sienna minivan. Can a Shopsmith fit in the back of a minivan, or would I need to disassemble it?

As the table saw features is the one I will likely use the most, I am wondering how it company to a dedicated table saw.

* The table size on models 510 and 520 is pretty similar to the Ryobi BT 3000, but the Ryobi is underpowered with its universal motor. Would the Shopsmith induction motor have more power?

* The Ryobi's fence is probably its strongest feature. It really stays parallel to the blade without any fuss. How does the fence on various models compare in that regard?

* The Ryobi has some vibration with thicker or harder materials. While generally acceptable you will see some unevenness in the edge that can require a bit of sanding. How is the rigidity of the Shopsmith arbor and table combination?

I have been reading websites and watching videos, and know there are several revisions of the Mark V. The most recent being the 520 with the pro-fence. Here are the prices I am seeing on Craigslist.:

Model 500 $275 to $500, occasionally free, but they're snapped up nearly instantly.
Model 510 $800 to $1,000, occasional with extras like a bandsaw or accessories shelf.
Model 520 $1,250, I have only seen one come up, and it is far away, but drivable.

Most of the 500s like they need TLC, but the 510s look nearly new. The 520 looks pristine.

* While it is possible to upgrade an older model the prices aren't listed on the Shopsmith website. So I don't know if it is economical to buy a 510 and upgrade it to the 520 table and fence. Anyone know roughly how much it would cost?

Obviously if money was no object I would buy a Mark VII with powerpro. That looks pretty sweet for wood turning and routing, but it's outside my budget.

Thanks,
Martin

[edma194]

* My ceiling is 7' 6". Is that high enough to bring the Shopsmith into a vertical position?

Yes

* I would transport the Shopsmith in a Toyota sienna minivan. Can a Shopsmith fit in the back of a minivan, or would I need to disassemble it?

Don't know exactly but it is very easy to remove the legs of the a Shopsmith and then it will easily fit in your minivan.

As the table saw features is the one I will likely use the most, I am wondering how it company to a dedicated table saw.

* The table size on models 510 and 520 is pretty similar to the Ryobi BT 3000, but the Ryobi is underpowered with its universal motor. Would the Shopsmith induction motor have more power?

IMO yes. You can lower blade speed to increase torque and a sharp blade will drive it's way through pretty heavy stock. I had a BT 3000 for a while and it worked well enough but I would expect the Shopsmith to do better as the wood gets harder and thicker.

* The Ryobi's fence is probably its strongest feature. It really stays parallel to the blade without any fuss. How does the fence on various models compare in that regard?

I don't have a 520. There can be some fuss with the 500 and 510 fences. But once adjusted and used properly they will stay in alignment. Keep in mind that the Shopsmith fence has more purposes than a fence for a single purpose tool like a table saw and multiple versions. As with many questions about any single feature of a Shopsmith the answer can be complicated.

* The Ryobi has some vibration with thicker or harder materials. While generally acceptable you will see some unevenness in the edge that can require a bit of sanding. How is the rigidity of the Shopsmith arbor and table combination?

Not sure what you've encountered. There are a number of threads here about table rigidity. I'll leave you to find them or someone else to point them out. It's another question with a complicated answer.

I have been reading websites and watching videos, and know there are several revisions of the Mark V. The most recent being the 520 with the pro-fence. Here are the prices I am seeing on Craigslist.:

Model 500 $275 to $500, occasionally free, but they're snapped up nearly instantly.
Model 510 $800 to $1,000, occasional with extras like a bandsaw or accessories shelf.
Model 520 $1,250, I have only seen one come up, and it is far away, but drivable.

Most of the 500s like they need TLC, but the 510s look nearly new. The 520 looks pristine.

* While it is possible to upgrade an older model the prices aren't listed on the Shopsmith website. So I don't know if it is economical to buy a 510 and upgrade it to the 520 table and fence. Anyone know roughly how much it would cost?

The upgrade kit was around $575+shipping from Shopsmith. I think upgrading a 510 is very economical.

If you buy a used Shopsmith you have to check for all the accessory parts you need for all it's functions. Used machines are usually missing something, and the low cost machines can be missing many things and need some work to get them fully working. If you have to buy parts for your miter gauge and new belts and lathe centers and a fence straddler and a drill chuck and a power coupler and hubs and pretty soon you're spending a lot more than you thought at first.

You also might get a big box of parts that can save you money. It might come with a universal arbor and extra saw blades and brad point drill bits and sanding drums and always at least one mystery non-Shopsmith part. All those things except maybe the last one could save you money down the road.

[thunderbirdbat]

Welcome to the Forum. At the beginning of the Maintenance and Repair section are some sticky notes that hold a lot of information for a new owner. In the sticky post titled "Shopsmith Large Format Drawings, Illustrations and More" by EverettDavis there is a link titled "My Google Drive". If you follow this link there are various restored manuals and documents, one of which is a PDF titled "Buying a Used Shopsmith v.2" that you may find useful.

[MartinH]

Thanks to both of you for your replies.

[RFGuy]

Hi,

I just registered with the forum and hope this is the correct area to post a question like this.

I recently retired and started doing more woodworking, but I live in the Boston area in a smaller house, so my work area is 9 x 12 feet. In that space I have a small workbench, a workmate, a tool chest, a Ryobi BT 3000 table saw, a benchtop drill press, and scroll saw. As space is tight, I am constantly trying to find more efficient ways to use it, so any suggestions are welcome.

Martin,

Welcome to the forum! First, I just have to ask if you are doing woodworking inside of the house? A 9x12 shop sounds like a bedroom. IF so, I just urge you to be cautious. Sawdust, particularly the small stuff you can't see, is hazardous to your health and will be hazardous to everyone living in that home. At a minimum you will need a very good dust collection system with HEPA filtration that filters down to 0.3µm, additional air filtration and ideally some way to seal off that room from the rest of the house - or the HVAC system will move all of the airborne dust to every other room of the house when it circulates the air. Just recently, someone I know in my local area who was doing woodworking professionally had to step back and retool his business because he can't do the day-to-day anymore because of lung issues from woodworking in a pro shop that had insufficient dust collection. It isn't just the pros that end up with health issues from woodworking. Below are some past forum threads and a link to a great website on the hazards of sawdust to the average hobbyist woodworker.

viewtopic.php?p=303873#p303873
viewtopic.php?p=266215#p266215
https://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.php

As the table saw features is the one I will likely use the most, I am wondering how it company to a dedicated table saw.

* The table size on models 510 and 520 is pretty similar to the Ryobi BT 3000, but the Ryobi is underpowered with its universal motor. Would the Shopsmith induction motor have more power?

* The Ryobi's fence is probably its strongest feature. It really stays parallel to the blade without any fuss. How does the fence on various models compare in that regard?

* The Ryobi has some vibration with thicker or harder materials. While generally acceptable you will see some unevenness in the edge that can require a bit of sanding. How is the rigidity of the Shopsmith arbor and table combination?

First know that I love my Mark V (520 now) and I have a small shop space (one car garage bay), albeit considerably bigger than yours. The Mark V as a table saw is solid, but it does take some getting used to. The tilting table (versus tilting arbor) is loved by some and hated by others on this forum. Personally, I wish Shopsmith sold a table option (for tablesaw only mode) that didn't tilt and a better dust collection lower saw guard to go with it. I only tilt my table when going to drill press mode and would prefer a tablesaw table & dust collection that was more robust. There are 500, 510 and 520 table/fence systems and each have their fans on this forum because they each work a bit differently. For example, my 510 fence was persnickety the entire time that I had it, but I am much happier with my 520 fence now. Some prefer the 510 and some prefer the 500. IF you are familiar with a standard table saw biesemeyer style fence and how effortless it glides on the table and adjusts, the Shopsmith equivalent is very different. I have no experience with the Ryobi tablesaw, but I hear that particular model was well loved...so much so that some have adapted part of the table system from the Ryobi and put it on a Mark V (multiple past threads on the forum detailing this). You mention that your Ryobi fence stays parallel with no fuss. I honestly can't say the same for the Mark V. It takes a little work for some and a lot more work for others here on the forum to keep it that way. Having said this, I routinely use mine for ripping 8/4 cherry and it is mostly effortless assuming that I have a sharp and clean blade and that the belt is tight on my 520.

viewtopic.php?p=305057#p305057
viewtopic.php?p=312032#p312032
viewtopic.php?p=304823#p304823
viewtopic.php?t=29084
viewtopic.php?t=27242&hilit=alignment

P.S. A 9x12 shop space is tough. I helped my Dad build a 12x18 building that has been his shop for decades and it has always been too small for a one Shopsmith shop. He keeps a 510 in there with a couple of standalone tools and workbenches. Honestly, I don't know how a Mark V is going to help you with that small of a space. It sounds like you have many of the tools you already need but want to add lathe capability. Is that correct? My suggestion would be to think of what works for you now and what capability you want to add. I would start from this. On the other hand, if you are unhappy with many of the tools you already have and want to jump to Shopsmith, that is great. I just wanted to point out that one Mark V is going to take up considerable space in that 9x12 shop. Getting creative with placement can help in small shop spaces, even with standalone tools. Including a few of my favorite small space shop tours below in case it gives you some more ideas and can help you. Good luck!

[RFGuy]

Martin,

Here are the Ryobi-Shopsmith conversions I could find:

Ryobi-Shopsmith Conversions:
viewtopic.php?t=21916

viewtopic.php?p=132796#p132796

viewtopic.php?t=9280

[MartinH]

@RFGuy, thanks for the links to the videos and your advice. To answer your first question, my shop is in an unfinished basement, and our house uses forced hot water heat, so the air doesn't circulate around the house. The reason my shop is so small is the furnace, heating oil tank, hot water heater, laundry area, and staircase get the lion's share of the basement. But better dust collection is definitely a priority.

I am happy with the Ryobi, but it is twenty years old and discontinued, so when it breaks it's going to be difficult to fix. But in the near term my goal is to add lathe capability. If I had the space, I would buy a Shopsmith for its drill press, shaper, and lathe functions alone and keep the Ryobi.

The furnace is now thirty-six years old, so when it breaks we might switch to a heat pump. That would open up my shop to 25 x 12 feet, so there's a possibility of more space down the road.

[RFGuy]

@RFGuy, thanks for the links to the videos and your advice. To answer your first question, my shop is in an unfinished basement, and our house uses forced hot water heat, so the air doesn't circulate around the house. The reason my shop is so small is the furnace, heating oil tank, hot water heater, laundry area, and staircase get the lion's share of the basement. But better dust collection is definitely a priority.

I am happy with the Ryobi, but it is twenty years old and discontinued, so when it breaks it's going to be difficult to fix. But in the near term my goal is to add lathe capability. If I had the space, I would buy a Shopsmith for its drill press, shaper, and lathe functions alone and keep the Ryobi.

The furnace is now thirty-six years old, so when it breaks we might switch to a heat pump. That would open up my shop to 25 x 12 feet, so there's a possibility of more space down the road.

Martin,

Still be careful with the basement. My FIL had a basement shop (foam ceiling tiles) and dust from the shop still infiltrated the rest of the house. I don't know the details of that particular house's construction, but the bedrooms were above the basement and lots of family members and visitors to that house had major sinus issues there after the wood shop was in full operation. When he passed away, I took down one of the ceiling tiles and found about 1/2" thick of sawdust above that drop ceiling; so it infiltrated above the drop ceiling and coated it evenly, so easy to see how it could migrate throughout the house structure. This despite him having a ClearVue 1800 Cyclone with lots of PVC ducting, dust hoods on tools, and an air filter system in the shop. Not trying to scare you, but I would be cautious. I have an attached garage for my shop and just with the air movement of going in and out of the house door, I am cautious so I purchased a Dylos laser particle counter so that I can track dust particulates in my shop and home. There is a cheaper dust particle counter on Amazon that is listed in one of the thread links I gave you. It is only $50 and well worth it to keep tabs on the dust in your shop or home. I want you to be woodworking for a good, long time which is why I am sharing all of this with you.

Yeah, that seems to be the main drawback on the Ryobi conversions is for example what about when parts wearout? Keep in mind if you buy a used Shopsmith, it may be just as old as the Ryobi, but perhaps a better chance of getting parts for it. Some use the Mark V as a shaper/router, but keep in mind it only goes to 5k RPM, unless you have the new Mark 7 PowerPro or use a speed increaser (both will get you to 10k RPM). It is okay as a router function at 10k RPM, but standalone router motors can go up to 30k RPM these days. Some prefer routing on their Mark V, but some like myself, prefer a standalone router for its performance instead. When space is a premium though, I understand the desire to use a Shopsmith as a router, but there are also the router tables that mount on the end of the Mark V, like an SPT, that you can put a standard router motor in. I used that for many years hanging off the end of my Mark V.

Yeah, a 25x12 shop is more breathable. Very similar to what I have. I only have one Mark V (520) and the main thing, for me at least, is how to fit the few tools, workbench, tool cabinet, etc. that I have with the Mark V AND a project at the same time that I am working on. Small things are easy like bowlturning, but for example building furniture in the space can be a challenge in managing the space at times. Knowing you can expand that space from 9x12 to 25x12 in the future gives me more hope of you being happy with a Mark V in that space. I feel more comfortable recommending a Mark V to you now, but know it will be cramped in the 9x12 and you will yearn for that expansion.

[roy_okc]

@MartinH,

First, welcome to the forum.

Having had a BT3000 in the past, currently a 500 (waiting to be converted to a 510) and 510, a 3HP Sawstop PCS, a Makita track saw, and a Makita miter saw, I'll toss out my thoughts especially on the sawing function and maybe give you some ideas.

I too found the BT3000 underpowered, but I don't know how much of that was the machine itself and how much me not yet knowing how to properly cut various materials. Based on your shop size, I'm guessing that having both the BT3000 and a Shopsmith are out of the question.

The 500 table is just too small in my opinion for doing much of any cutting other than small crosscuts/short rips, I won't use it. The 510 table is much more spacious and I was generally confident and comfortable cutting materials with the table in the flat position; with a very nice blade, I could easily cross cut and rip 3/4" stock and have very clean cuts ready or close to ready for gluing, took more care and slower feed for thicker stock. However, I'm in team "despise" when it comes to non-flat table sawing operations and just won't do it as I have other options. The PCS is a whole 'nother level of machine, as should be expected, and I'm very comfortable with angled cuts on it.

One option for better/safer beveled cuts, if you don't need beveled rip cuts, is a decent miter saw, although this obviously requires dedicated parking space for something of significant size.

If you do need beveled rips, don't have the space for a miter saw, or frequently need to cut down sheet materials, consider a decent track saw; when I got rid of my BT, I used the EurekaZone (now defunct) system for a few years with no other cutting options and it did pretty well for me. The battery Makita that I now have is so much better than the capable EurekaZone system and there are a few recent track saw systems that are much less expensive (Ryobi and Kreg for instance) although using non-"standard" tracks.

So why do I have two Shopsmiths, and will likely always keep at least one as long as I have the space? It's the other features, especially the horizontal boring, along with a couple SPTs. I recently set up a secondary space with quite a bit of room, took the 510 with bandsaw there (I have a second bandsaw, jointer, and wide belt sander). I used it while building some large shelving units to bore holes in the ends of 8' 2x4s for leveling feet (made from hockey pucks and carriage bolts); sure I could have used a portable drill, but some/all of the holes would have been angled rather than straight which would have caused the feet to not sit flat. I've also used it a couple times in drill press mode, used the bandsaw on a couple things, etc., and will get more frequent and varied use after I have the space set up and start working on projects. As for the lathe function, I learned to turn on my 500 and it is pretty capable for turning between centers, I had unresolved issues for certain chuck-only (hollow vessels, bowls) that were more annoying rather than limiting, and it is a bit too low for many who are taller for extended turning (although lifting it onto blocks of wood mostly overcomes that). I will also likely use them as a second saw setup, for example the PCS for a ripping operation and then immediately to the SS to dado/rabbet, or rip cut on the SS and immediately bevel RIP those in half on the PCS or track saw (French cleats for example).

[Ed in Tampa]

My experience in lathe turning the most used tools are lathe, drill press and band saw.
In DIY home repair the most used tools are 90% powered hand tools.
In craftsman style woodworking Tablesaw, hand tools, router, bandsaw

A tablesaw is nice but requires a huge amount of space both for the saw but mostly for infeed, outfeed, and side space. So if you are focused on a tablesaw you need more room for infeed, sidefeed and outfeed than you have. Have you considered a track saw the only space you need is the space to hold the material. The saw itself would also be very handy for home repair and basic construction.

My opinion is, the space you have you need to focus on tools that allow the material to be stationary and the tool moves rather than stationary tools where you have to have tools space plus infeed and outfeed and side space.

Go watch European DIY woodworkers, they mostly have limited space the size you mentioned and use tools that move rather than moving the material through the tool.